[Preview] Imperium Romanum

[metsikhovne]

excellent work great beautiful units. really loved your work. + rep to guys in credits good work.

[Gastrilis]

very good.

[Archagetes]

Magnificent units, especally the loricati!
But why did you gave the crossbowmen to the saxons?
Just because the kings at this time had their dominion there?
I would have associated saxons more with swords, especally when their name maybe derives from a sword ^^
I think it's to generalized.
And won't it be a little bit weird recruiting Saxones in southern Italy?

Für das Reich!

[NikeBG]

Less weird than recruiting Frisians? The thing to keep in mind is that these regional troops aren't necessarily recruited from province A or B - they're brought over from the German domains outside our map.

[Marcus Ulpius Nerva Trajanus]

Damn you, TGC team. I thought this was the one true Roman Empire's preview !

But well, nevermind. Those Franks of yours display so much awesomeness I ain't even mad.

[_Tartaros_]

Magnificent units, especally the loricati!
But why did you gave the crossbowmen to the saxons?
Just because the kings at this time had their dominion there?
I would have associated saxons more with swords, especally when their name maybe derives from a sword ^^
I think it's to generalized.
And won't it be a little bit weird recruiting Saxones in southern Italy?

Für das Reich!

thy can use the sax as secondary weapon - so it seems no problem to me

[absinthia]

thy can use the sax as secondary weapon - so it seems no problem to me

yes they use a Langseax, where blades found range up to 52 cm. basicaly a short, single edged, arming-sword. or a heavy machete or cutlas.

[sheba021]

Looks truly amazing. Good luck with the release guys!

[FliegerAD]

Hello, sorry for my silence, last week was a lot of last-minute work to do...
Now I am trying to answer a couple of questions, hopefully I have not forgotten someone.

Some people believe that they were armed with earliest examples of two handed swords. Of course It is nonsense, probably mistake was made due to translation (long sword doesn't mean 2 handed).

Regarding Lechfeld: were there 8 000 Loricati + infantry or whole German army was ~8000 men including both infantry and Loricati? In most European armies heavy cavalry was minority comparing to infantry, do you have any info about such proportion in Lechfeld battle?

Yes, I came across the two-handed swords as well. William of Apulia, the prime source for the Norman conquest of Italy, indeed notes the especially long and sharp/bright swords of the Swabians (sunt etenim longi specialiter et peracuti Illorum gladii) and some people may have associated that with the later, more famous Swabian Zweihänder. It is true that German swords were considered the world’s finest in this time and highly sought after.

The Lechfeld Legions are probably only the armoured horsemen, for the infantry had other work to do, like setting up ambushes, defending ramparts and so on. 8000 as the whole total of cavalry and infantry would seem a little low considering almost all Dukes were present with their armies.

Independent from the nice mod concept/preview, as for pure interest:
- Stumbled about the Saxon Crossbowmen ... would be interested in a historical source for this unit in this timeperiod.
- Teardrop shieldform, ages ago i researched/discussed that point, too, can't remember now the results. Is it historical accurate that the presented units used that in this period already, source?

Yes, in the Historiae of Richerus of Reims (mid 10th century) e.g., the crossbow was a usual weapon of war. We also have 10th century pictures:



And yes, again, the kite shield can be found in 11 th century depictions, here is the Codex Aureus Epternacensis:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...censis_002.jpg

[Djordje]

Very nice preview. I followd your mod for a long time, and and it is most anticipated mod for me. Looking forward for new previews.

[Wareg]

The Lechfeld Legions are probably only the armoured horsemen, for the infantry had other work to do, like setting up ambushes, defending ramparts and so on. 8000 as the whole total of cavalry and infantry would seem a little low considering almost all Dukes were present with their armies.

At Bouvines each army had from 1500 to 4000 heavy cavalry, at Courtrair French had 2-3000 heavy cavalry, so both estaminates (8000 as whole army or 8000 as "knights") seems possbile. Magyar wiki give number of only 3500-4000 knights and no mention about infantry.
If there is no info about infantry in sources, and It seems logical that army sent against Magyars should be mobile, your theory that Germans left their infantry to another tasks seems likely, thanks for answer

Regarding crossbows, there are also findings from 7 or 8th century Scotland, there is theory that they were in continuous use from Roman times (although not as common on the battlefield as later, they may be hunting weapons).

Regarding shields, 10th century seems to be still age of round shield, 11th century - kite. Domini ac defensores seems to be more 10th century unit, Loricati -11th century (as I guess will Lorciati be available after cocuched lance style "invention" event?)

[FliegerAD]

At Bouvines each army had from 1500 to 4000 heavy cavalry, at Courtrair French had 2-3000 heavy cavalry, so both estaminates (8000 as whole army or 8000 as "knights") seems possbile. Magyar wiki give number of only 3500-4000 knights and no mention about infantry.
If there is no info about infantry in sources, and It seems logical that army sent against Magyars should be mobile, your theory that Germans left their infantry to another tasks seems likely, thanks for answer

I am following Charles Bowlus' seminal work on the Lechfeld battle in the question of infantry.

There are two factors that make me sure that these 8 legions were heavy cavalry only:
First, the narrative of Widukind of Corvey only speaks of milites and the whole story is hard to imagine with any infantry around.
Second, take a look at the Indiculus Loricatorum. It is a list of reinforcements for Italy in 982, numbering 2100 heavy horsemen. If one takes these numbers and assumes other Margraves can field a similiar number of loricatil ike the Margraves in the list for example (and other Bishops as many as the Bishops in the list, and so on.), we arrive at estimations of some 16.000 loricati in Germany! So 8.000 in a crucial battle on home ground - as opposed to the expedition army reinforcements in the Induculus - with lots of preparation seem very much likely to me.

[absinthia]

A
Regarding crossbows, there are also findings from 7 or 8th century Scotland, there is theory that they were in continuous use from Roman times (although not as common on the battlefield as later, they may be hunting weapons).

it could seem that the Picts uniquely maintained use of a sort of crosbow. this is thought to have been a "primitive" peg-bow, more or less a bow on a stick. it would not have a crank or lever and not the effect of the "typical" medieval cross-bow.
depictions on standing stones suggest it was used for hunting.

[Wareg]

it could seem that the Picts uniquely maintained use of a sort of crosbow. this is thought to have been a "primitive" peg-bow, more or less a bow on a stick. it would not have a crank or lever and not the effect of the "typical" medieval cross-bow.
depictions on standing stones suggest it was used for hunting.

Probably they were in use also 4-7th century Gaul, also for hunting. In some parts of world (not mention China!)they could be in use from acient times, but not in warfare. They were primitive, but X-XI military crossbows (TGC timeframe) also, they hadn't got crank or lever as well.

I am following Charles Bowlus' seminal work on the Lechfeld battle in the question of infantry.

There are two factors that make me sure that these 8 legions were heavy cavalry only:
First, the narrative of Widukind of Corvey only speaks of milites and the whole story is hard to imagine with any infantry around.
Second, take a look at the Indiculus Loricatorum. It is a list of reinforcements for Italy in 982, numbering 2100 heavy horsemen. If one takes these numbers and assumes other Margraves can field a similiar number of loricatil ike the Margraves in the list for example (and other Bishops as many as the Bishops in the list, and so on.), we arrive at estimations of some 16.000 loricati in Germany! So 8.000 in a crucial battle on home ground - as opposed to the expedition army reinforcements in the Induculus - with lots of preparation seem very much likely to me.

German army was moving toward Augsburg and Lechfeld with speed ~ 20-25 km/day. However, It may be due to camp followers. During battle baggage train was captured.
It will be great If you will create "camp followers" unit with warwagons. Warwagons were used by Khazars and Pechengs, camp followers attack during battle of River Bug (1018) was crucial, as appearance of Frankish cavalry in Arabian camp during battle of Poitiers/Tours.

[AnthoniusII]

TGC crossbows are "simple" thanks to Markhaselb's crossbow models and his new animations!
Watch these guys and their crossbows carefully:


See...that exept the "triger" there is nothing else.
Watch th e1st rank warriors and their moves since they trag the bolts of their quiver to the moment they place them on the crossbows.
Chandax video shows vanilla animations and crossbows. But thanks to Markhaselb that has been changed.

[Parzival2211]

Great, looking forward to this!

[Wareg]

Looks great, is this animation faster than normal MTWII crossbowmen animation?

[Archagetes]

Less weird than recruiting Frisians? The thing to keep in mind is that these regional troops aren't necessarily recruited from province A or B - they're brought over from the German domains outside our map.

I just picked the Saxons for an example.
And following you logic one also could recruit nubians or even elephants in Italy- probably they also were brougth there...
The thing is I don't understand why most German units have local names and all other factions not.

[absinthia]

you would not be able to recruit Saxones in Italy unless the region has turned properly German. for this purpose we use the same religion scheme as was done in the Kingdoms: Britannia campaign.
for newly conquered areas one will have to rely on local peasants and nobles as AOR units. one will have to properly convert a region before it becomes usefull, one will have a hard time rolling over a weakened opponent and conquering many new regions.

you should know that Carlemange had laws written down for each people, or gens, within his realm. rather than attempting to make everyone Frankish, he seem to have gone the opposite way and created distinct divisons between them. the laws were issued so that each could be judged by the laws of his people.
there were also rules and regulations concerning how far the levy would be expected to travell from their home area. while Otto may have changed things a bit, the levy were still fairly localised.
obviously the type of weapons we have given the various levy-groups has no direct ties to their region on particular, a Swabian could use a crossbow just like a Saxon. but we could hardly make one regional unit for each weapon either...
the other option would be to use a generic english naming like "German Crossbowmen" and such, while the other factions use "native" names for most of theirs.
but then everyone would complain why they use english names while other factions do not...

[FliegerAD]

I may add to Abs that only the levy was regionalized. The whole German military was heavily regionalized. In fact, there was no German military in a sense of a centralized, permanent command and control, but only Ducal forces.
While we could not regionalize the heavy cavalry because a loricatus is a loricatus no matter if Bavarian or Saxon, there were some local differences in the levy. The Bavarians were lightly armed, the Frisians were famed and used for amphibious assaults, and Swabian swordsmen enjoyed an excellent reputation, to name some examples.
So we decided to capitalize these differences. The alternative as laid out by Abs is having most generic names, which are not only boring but they also bring another problem: generic names cannot represent the system of the select levy well. And the select levy was very important.