The Honorable Club of Role Playing Gentlemen and Ladies of the Center Total war

[Dirty Chai]

Vendel & Sutton Hoo? (compare the burials) Scandinavia was not a forgotten or unknown part of the world, they had been interacting with the rest of Europe for centuries. Unless by 'Vikings' you mean the specific groups of raiders from the 8th century onwards?

Yes, I meant the actual vikings.
You'd get Frankish traders and the odd Scandinavian trader traveling between both 'worlds', but little else..

[Ace_General]

Vendel & Sutton Hoo? (compare the burials) Scandinavia was not a forgotten or unknown part of the world, they had been interacting with the rest of Europe for centuries. Unless by 'Vikings' you mean the specific groups of raiders from the 8th century onwards?

On another note, I am walking talking proof that the Norse had extensive contacts in poland. On my mothers side, my uncle Joe Karowowski had a genetic test and his male line of descent is Norwegian genetically.

Also, I dont think that the norse just suddenly exploded out of scandinavia in 793, its very probably they had contacts of a smaller and less violent nature, but given a few traders, some mercenaries, maybe a small raid in the baltic or close to the norse homelands, and it wouldn't of warranted inclusion in chroniciles to the scale we would be able to read today(also a large number of records havent survived). Also, to a frank who doesnt know the northern germanic languages, what will make you able to tell the difference between a Frisian, Jute, Angle, saxon(continental) or Norse// There all just big Northern European guys speaking a germanic language, and unless their burning a church and sacrificing a nun to odin or something, it seems to me pretty damn hard to tell the difference, especially if your the type of guy who can write, which chances are you are a monk and not a guy on the frontier who has regular contact with foreigners.

Also, we dont have the written reccords of the West Slavs(besides the poles starting spotily in the late 800s who were away from the coast at this time), but IM sure within the calmer waters of teh baltic, tis not inconevicable that the norse were sailing around. A culture doesnt just go form standing on the coast staring at the sea like an idiot to sailing across the norse sea, there has to be experimentation in boat building and alot of Maritime experiance

[René Artois]

Of course they didn't explode out of Scandinavia in 793. Evidence shows contact occurred on a scale greater than "the odd Scandinavian trader", something that goes for contact between most peoples in the Early Middle Ages.
But yeah, like I said, compare evidence such as the Sutton Hoo burials in England and the Vendel burials in Sweden. Significant, and probably sustained contact between Scandinavia and (in this case) the Anglo-Saxons in the 6th and 7th centuries. Significant here being either diplomatic/dynastic contact or the exchange of skills (i.e. a Scandinavian master smith serving Anglian royalty) maybe even via the Frankish Empire.

It's highly plausible Franks could have reached Scandinavia if they so wanted. The Scandinavians don't seem to have been particularly racist (not enough to kick out foreigners at least), genetic studies even show that the majority of settlers on Iceland were Irish and Scottish, mingling in with the Norwegian population in the Viking period.

They weren't separate worlds either, as you suggest. Look, again, at the evidence and you can see trade continued all over between Europe, the Mediterranean and North Africa from the end of the Roman period right through the so-called Dark Ages. Ignore what's been shown on that TV show, the Vikings didn't just sail west and stumble upon a new land they knew nothing about and attack it because the people were different. They were planned attacks for economic gain.

[Dirty Chai]

Right, so I'm just supposed to allow a game based on the concept of Norse society to have an entire clan composed of misfits from other cultures, Irishmen included?
And the entire point of said clan is to go off and ruin some other culture so that those players can call themselves kings?
All because you made a multi-paragraphed post about possible cross-cultural communications and similarities that anyone could see without your effort?

Alright, sure; I made it seem as though I thought there was some giant canyon separating Scandinavia from the rest of the world.
I never meant that, and you probably know it.

[Lucius Malfoy]

Right, so I'm just supposed to allow a game based on the concept of Norse society to have an entire clan composed of misfits from other cultures, Irishmen included?

He does make a point here, Rene.

[Ace_General]

Guys, I think Im just going to make my own RPG, with hookers and Blackjack

God save the Grand Prince of All the Russias

Setting: Year 1000, right when the Kievan Rus was at the peak of its power and has recently christianized. There is the Veilky Kynaz, or Grand Prince of All the Russias, and then there is to be four princedoms, namely Kiev(Roughly what is now the modern Ethnic Ukrainian parts of the Ukraine.), Poltosk(roughly Belorussia), and Vladimir(roughly half of european russia less Novogord and the Baltic coats+Karelia and Arkanglsk)

The first 3 players to join get a Princedom, and then people who join after that can either work for a prince or the grand prince as a vassal, or do their own thing. And as long as something is historically plausible, it shall be permitted, though to be a prince, you have to be at least of Partially Russian and Norse heritage. The Kynaz's(princes) shall rule their realm as they see fit, provided they do not threaten the good of the entire kingdom with their actions or actively try to overthrow the Veliky Kynaz(grand prince)

Also, the Lands of the Rus are going to be surrounded by many varied and warlike peoples, so focus is going to be on wars of conquest and defense as much as internal poltics and civil wars. We have Fins, Balts, Swedes, Poles, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Kipchayks, Bulgars, Finns and other Urgalic peoples, and Khazars surrounding the kingdom.

Also, if people would be more receptive, I can also move the setting to the 1200s to the time of Alexander Nevsky where you had the mongols ruling part of Russia, but also Swedish and other crusaders attacking too.

[René Artois]

He does make a point here, Rene.

I just think it was a bit harsh to not allow someone to play a Frank. I mean, I don't see why you would want to sign up to a Norse game and play a Frank, but banning based on historical misconceptions is also a bit silly. It's an ethnicity, some good roleplay could probably be made of him attempting to fit into a different culture, allowing other Norse characters to react to the Frank, their reactions and the stories based on how well he does to fit in (i.e. is he attempting to continue in a Frankish Christian way or has he taken quickly to Nordic paganism and lifestyle?).

[Honors Bastion]

I just think it was a bit harsh to not allow someone to play a Frank. I mean, I don't see why you would want to sign up to a Norse game and play a Frank, but banning based on historical misconceptions is also a bit silly. It's an ethnicity, some good roleplay could probably be made of him attempting to fit into a different culture, allowing other Norse characters to react to the Frank, their reactions and the stories based on how well he does to fit in (i.e. is he attempting to continue in a Frankish Christian way or has he taken quickly to Nordic paganism and lifestyle?).

Yes, good roleplay can probably come from an outsider trying to adapt to the local culture. However, the players who want to be a Frank or an Irishmen have shown no inclination that they are going to do such a thing. The only thing that I have seen from them so far is their desire to use Viken as their base so that they can go off and conquer far away places for them rule as Kings or an equivalent title. They have shown no inclination towards just staying in the Viken area and Ace remarks clearly support this.

But ignoring all of this, is Skjoldr just suppose to let players do what they want on a game that he has poured a lot of time and effort on. He has all the right to impose limitations since it is his game. If the other players don't like it then they are free to create their own RPs and create rules that fir their own desires. If they don't want to do that then they need to accept that limits that the gamemaker has imposed on them or not play at all.

[René Artois]

Yes, good roleplay can probably come from an outsider trying to adapt to the local culture. However, the players who want to be a Frank or an Irishmen have shown no inclination that they are going to do such a thing. The only thing that I have seen from them so far is their desire to use Viken as their base so that they can go off and conquer far away places for them rule as Kings or an equivalent title. They have shown no inclination towards just staying in the Viken area and Ace remarks clearly support this.

But ignoring all of this, is Skjoldr just suppose to let players do what they want on a game that he has poured a lot of time and effort on. He has all the right to impose limitations since it is his game. If the other players don't like it then they are free to create their own RPs and create rules that fir their own desires. If they don't want to do that then they need to accept that limits that the gamemaker has imposed on them or not play at all.

a) That's not stopping the Norse players being hostile to them is it? Get together your armies and kill them if they try to do stupid things.
(Plus, surely the game mechanics don't support external conquest?)
b) True but in that case he should just make it a rule that all players should be Norse because he wants that, rather than trying to justify it (something he has no need to do, as it's his game) with faux history, even though apparently he didn't mean what he said.

[Agamemnon]

I actually was planning to do that "outsider" RP, but everybody got angry at me for even proposing such a character, because apparently if a non-Norseman lives in Scandinavia the world implodes.

[Trot]

It would be quite possible to have other then pure norse ethnicity in your setting BF. A player could make an escaped thrall taken in a raid for example, or a Norse-Irish hybrid or a number of other combinations. Norse men raped and pillaged for a long time often taking slaves as they went. Just saying no is a poor start to an RP. Giving players more options is always better. If they can make it work with the rp let them. Don't just say no.

[Lucius Malfoy]

It would be quite possible to have other then pure norse ethnicity in your setting BF. A player could make an escaped thrall taken in a raid for example, or a Norse-Irish hybrid or a number of other combinations. Norse men raped and pillaged for a long time often taking slaves as they went. Just saying no is a poor start to an RP. Giving players more options is always better. If they can make it work with the rp let them. Don't just say no.

There are limits to it though. Besides, the topic has already been decided upon and moved on from. No need to bring it back up.
As its creator, Sotha is entitled to what he wants within the roleplay and how he interprets what fits and doesn't.

Anyways, let us move on and away from the topic. It has been decided upon and finalized by Sotha.

[René Artois]

It would be quite possible to have other then pure norse ethnicity in your setting BF. A player could make an escaped thrall taken in a raid for example, or a Norse-Irish hybrid or a number of other combinations. Norse men raped and pillaged for a long time often taking slaves as they went. Just saying no is a poor start to an RP. Giving players more options is always better. If they can make it work with the rp let them. Don't just say no.

A bit early for the raiding and enslavement of Irish people.

[Dirty Chai]

It would be quite possible to have other then pure norse ethnicity in your setting BF. A player could make an escaped thrall taken in a raid for example, or a Norse-Irish hybrid or a number of other combinations. Norse men raped and pillaged for a long time often taking slaves as they went. Just saying no is a poor start to an RP. Giving players more options is always better. If they can make it work with the rp let them. Don't just say no.

Don't assume I'm 100% against other ethnicities being represented in Yggdrasil. I guess it seems like that.
I just can't put up with it when it makes little sense.

My post in Yggdrasil was not telling players they can't play Irishmen or Franks, but stating I won't change the game because a handful of players would demand it.

I'm dropping the argument about origins, but I won't change the game just so that Ace can have his way.

[Lucius Malfoy]

A bit early for the raiding and enslavement of Irish people.

Precisely.

[Ace_General]

There are limits to it though. Besides, the topic has already been decided upon and moved on from. No need to bring it back up.
As its creator, Sotha is entitled to what he wants within the roleplay and how he interprets what fits and doesn't.

Anyways, let us move on and away from the topic. It has been decided upon and finalized by Sotha.

*shameless plug*

Join God save the Rodina! Unless you are a starting Prince of a major subdivision of the Rus State, you can be any enthnicty you wish from the Urals to the rhine(but being a jew or Muslim[there was alot of hate and slave trading and violence even then] is not recommended).

[Agamemnon]

I'm Prince of Novgorod and going to be Norse for the heck of it.

[Ace_General]

I'm Prince of Novgorod and going to be Norse for the heck of it.

Lol that works perfectly, the Rukid dynasty, at least the male line of descent was of Norse blood, and actually claimed they were the descendants of Odin.

Also, would love to have someone make a sig for God Save the Rodina, Im going to find a suitable painting to make it out of, and anyone know how to put a link in a sig?

[General Retreat]

Lol that works perfectly, the Rukid dynasty, at least the male line of descent was of Norse blood, and actually claimed they were the descendants of Odin.

Also, would love to have someone make a sig for God Save the Rodina, Im going to find a suitable painting to make it out of, and anyone know how to put a link in a sig?

[ URL ="http://www.twcenter.net/forums/member.php?62515-Ace_General" ] [ IMG ] http://www.twcenter.net/forums/custo...ar62515_12.gif [/ IMG ] [ /URL ]

Wrap the [IMG] tags with a hyperlink.

[Agamemnon]

So those Hellas Asunder rules look interesting. I'm game for an Ancient Athens game.