Vatican's property empire and Mussolini's money

[Garbarsardar]

A company makes a shady deal with a dictator, gets a lump sum, washes it through enough offshore companies in various tax heavens, and then buys itself some real estate in downtown London. Nothing strange about that.

However when the company is the Catholic church that surely must make some difference.

Should the Church be held to a higher standard?

[The Despondent Mind]

I understand some people believe in God, I understand some people are christian , what I don't understand is how anyone considers the Papacy and the Pope Holy these days .
This is just one of the MANY shady work they did throughout history .

But I guess nobody will touch them for this , as usual .

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Yeah, they should be held to a higher standard if they want to act so holy and maintain a tax exempt status.

[Sir Adrian]

Churches are exempt from tax only for their non-commercial/non-profit activities. All affiliated offshore companies pay tax as any other company would and can be prosecuted for tax evasion (in theory, that is).

Acting Holy is not illegal.

A company makes a shady deal with a dictator, gets a lump sum, washes it through enough offshore companies in various tax heavens, and then buys itself some real estate in downtown London. Nothing strange about that.

However when the company is the Catholic church that surely must make some difference.

Should the Church be held to a higher standard?

They shouldn't be held to a higher standard than any other public institution. after all the Catholic Church is also run by men (even though they claim otherwise), and all men are fallible.
A better question would be: what are they using that money for? I don't think there would be any problems if they used the profits from said investments to help the poor and care for the sick, or other stuff like that.

what I don't understand is how anyone considers the Papacy and the Pope Holy these days .

I agree with what you said but one should not criticize a man who was elected to a certain position for the deeds of his predecessors, especially if he had no possibility to influence said deeds.

The fault lies solely with whoever was Pope at the time, for accepting Mussolini's bribe-money.

[Hakomar]

The problem would be is that the Church claims to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ - not exist to make a profit like a business. It reeks of hypocrisy, all the geopolitical games and laundering of money, that the church has done whilst still claiming to be the highest echelons of those who follow the Holy Bible. Matthew 19:21 says if you want to emulate Christ then give up your wordly possessions to the poor, yet the Pope sits from his golden throne in his own country, whilst attented to by others. It wouldn't be normal for a company to get avoid tax and get real estate in London if it had preached for two thousand years of the evils of the love of money and preached a charity system encoded into its very being whilst then avoiding it.

[cfmonkey45]

A company makes a shady deal with a dictator, gets a lump sum, washes it through enough offshore companies in various tax heavens, and then buys itself some real estate in downtown London. Nothing strange about that.

However when the company is the Catholic church that surely must make some difference.

Should the Church be held to a higher standard?

I read this on Reddit, and the phrasing of the article always irked me. The Vatican and the Holy See don't exactly make me all warm and fuzzy, but there are a few anachronisms here.

The Vatican's deal with Mussolini, who had just taken power and was not technically a dictator (he served at the pleasure of King Emmanuel II), was in return for the loss of their territory, the Papal States, and, further, the recognition of the Italian State.

Originally, the Vatican's relations with Mussolini were as warm as they needed to be, since Mussolini was the only Italian politician who actually cared about rectifying the Vatican situation (until then, the Pope was referred to as the "Prisoner in the Vatican"). However, as the 1930s dragged on, relations with Mussolini cooled.

The German government (not the Nazis, Hitler, at this point, was still in a coalition government with the Konservative Partei and the Zentrum Partei, so he sent Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen, who was a Roman Catholic and almost immediately after sidelined by the Nazis; they used the Reichskonkordat as a vehicle to replace von Papen) further signed a treaty, the Reichskonkordat, with the Vatican to secure recognition of the Nazi regime for fear that Germany might succumb to a Civil War, similar to what was happening in Spain, and in fear that a Communist Red Terror, like what was happening in Spain, Mexico, and the Soviet Union, would also happen in Germany. It was also an attempt to rectify the second-class citizenship that was given to the German Catholics after Otto von Bismarck's Kulturkampf.

Pius XI aimed to end the long breach between the papacy and the Italian government and to gain recognition once more of the sovereign independence of the Holy See. Most of the Papal States had been seized by the forces of King Victor Emmanuel II of Italy (1861–1878) in 1860 at the foundation of the modern unified Italian state, and the rest, including Rome, in 1870. The Papacy and the Italian Government had been at loggerheads ever since: the Popes had refused to recognise the Italian state's seizure of the Papal States, instead withdrawing to become prisoners in the Vatican, and the Italian government's policies had always been anti-clerical. Now Pius XI thought a compromise would be the best solution.
To bolster his own new regime, Benito Mussolini was also eager for an agreement. After years of negotiation, in 1929, the Pope supervised the signing of the Lateran Treaties with the Italian government. According to the terms of the first treaty, Vatican City was given sovereignty as an independent nation in return for the Vatican relinquishing its claim to the former territories of the Papal States. Pius XI thus became a head of state (albeit the smallest state in the world), the first Pope who could be termed as such since the Papal States fell after the unification of Italy in the 19th century. The Concordat of 1929 made Catholicism the sole religion of the state (although other religions were tolerated), paid salaries to priests and bishops, recognized church marriages (previously couples had to have a civil ceremony), and brought religious instruction into the public schools. In turn the bishops swore allegiance to the Italian state, which had a veto power over their selection.[24] The Church was not officially obligated its support the Fascist regime; the strong differences remained but the seething hostility ended. The Church especially endorsed foreign policies such as support for the anti-Communist side in the Spanish Civil War, and support for the conquest of Ethiopia. Friction continued over the Catholic Action youth network, which Mussolini wanted to merge into his Fascist youth group.[25]
A third agreement paid the Vatican 1750 million lira (about $100 million) for the seizures of church property since 1860. Pius XI used invested the money in the stock markets and real estate. To manage these investments, the Pope appointed the lay-person Bernadino Nogara, who through shrewd investing in stocks, gold, and futures markets, significantly increased the Catholic Church's financial holdings. The income largely paid for the upkeep of the expensive-to-maintain stock of historic buildings in the Vatican which previously had been maintained through funds raised from the Papal States up until 1870.


The Vatican's relationship with Mussolini's government deteriorated drastically after 1930 as Mussolini's totalitarian ambitions began to impinge more and more on the autonomy of the Church. For example, the Fascits tried to absorb the Church's youth groups. In response Pius issued the encyclical Non Abbiamo Bisogno ("We Have No Need)") in 1931. It denounced the regime's persecution of the church in Italy and condemned "pagan worship of the State."[26]


Mussolini urged Pius to excommunicate Hitler as he thought it would render him less powerful in Catholic Austria and reduce the danger to Italy and wider Europe. The Vatican refused to comply and thereafter Mussolini began to work with Hitler, adopting his anti-semitic and race theories.[27]

Pope Pius XI hated Anti-Semitism, and later, ultimately Fascism, and, in 1938, published Mit brennender Sorge, which was a sweeping condemnation of both Italian and German fascism. In Germany, the majority of copies were rounded up and destroyed by the Nazi government. In Italy, it seriously damaged Vatican-Italian relations, while elsewhere, it was barely mentioned.

So the notion that the Vatican participates in any sort of blood money and got their hands wet is not really true.


Now, as for their property Empire, I would argue that the charge of "blood money" is incorrect, and the only real cause for concern is whether or not the Vatican participated in money laundering or tax evasion, which should be condemned in the strongest terms.

If not, then, apart from maybe the question of what the Vatican is doing with its funds, its not really a big issue.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Churches are exempt from tax only for their non-commercial/non-profit activities. All affiliated offshore companies pay tax as any other company would and can be prosecuted for tax evasion (in theory, that is).

Acting Holy is not illegal.




They shouldn't be held to a higher standard than any other public institution. after all the Catholic Church is also run by men (even though they claim otherwise), and all men are fallible.
A better question would be: what are they using that money for? I don't think there would be any problems if they used the profits from said investments to help the poor and care for the sick, or other stuff like that.



I agree with what you said but one should not criticize a man who was elected to a certain position for the deeds of his predecessors, especially if he had no possibility to influence said deeds.

The fault lies solely with whoever was Pope at the time, for accepting Mussolini's bribe-money.

Lot's of big corporations run charitable programs, but they don't get a tax exempt status, because unlike most charities, they don't rely on donations, and they don't claim to be a religious institution. The Catholic Church is just like any business, except it claims to be special. It's got enterprises and properties all over the world, and it gives away a portion of it's profits to charitable organisations it owns. There's nothing special about them.

And I'm aware that acting holy isn't illegal, but if they're going to do so while doing certain "dishonourable" things, they're just hypocrites, not worthy of the ridiculous influence they have/had. And I never said that it's illegal to be holy. I just think that those who claim to be holy should also be it.

[Murphy]

Now, as for their property Empire, I would argue that the charge of "blood money" is incorrect, and the only real cause for concern is whether or not the Vatican participated in money laundering or tax evasion, which should be condemned in the strongest terms.

One thing that should be kept in mind is that there are different laws and ways of doing things as concerns the handling of money throughout the world. I really know very little about this situation though I've heard of it a few times. I once heard a rebuttal to the effect that money is handled different in Italy than the United States.

All that really matters is whether the Church's financial dealings are legal or not. For that I cannot say. I would like to hope that they are.

[Lazarus]

I don't see what's so troubling about asking the Church to be held accountable just like everyone else...

[MaximiIian]

Should the Church be held to a higher standard?

Everyone should be held to a higher standard. Anyone who would do such a greed-driven deal is awful, and any organisation that does it is corrupt.

[Dr. Croccer]

So the Papacy gets money from the Italian state as reparations for the loss of territory the former suffered at the hands of the latter and that makes them fascists? Mussolini was bad, but he wasn't some king Midas whose very touch taints everyone.

I really don't get why people are so bent on demonizing the Catholic Church all the time to the point of silliness when there are plenty of other private institutions that went unpunished for things like slavery and stealing the belongings of Jews (you know, actual crimes) that barely get mentioned. This is already spiralling into another repetitive debate about the evils of the church rather than what actually happened historically.

[mishkin]

A company makes a shady deal with a dictator, gets a lump sum, washes it through enough offshore companies in various tax heavens, and then buys itself some real estate in downtown London.

is this acceptable for any company?
is this acceptable for an institution that acts as a champion of morality?
luckily we know that their morality is as false as chastity in the Vatican.
so this is no surprise.

[Rijul.J.Ballal]

^ funny but true...

[Sir Adrian]

Lot's of big corporations run charitable programs, but they don't get a tax exempt status

Firstly companies don't get taxed on the charities they run, quite to the contrary. Most companies' charity organizations are set up as non-profit subsidiaries. They are exempt from tax in most countries.
Secondly only income resulting from commercial activities and certain "luxury" expenses are taxable. Receiving donations is not taxable, anywhere.

Here's how it works: Companies get taxed for their profits and then they divert part of those profits to the charities. The money transferred to the charity is tax deductible up to a certain percentage of you overall profits. That means that their overall taxable profit is lower than their real profit and they pay less taxes (usually owed taxes are calculated as a percentage out of your taxable profit)
That's why almost all corporations runs charities, and why almost all corporations attempt to use their charities for tax evasion at one point or another.

On the other hand Christian churches have been running charities long before the modern concepts of "income tax", "fiscal authority" and "tax deduction" even existed, so I doubt that paying less tax is their main motivation.

because unlike most charities, they don't rely on donations, and they don't claim to be a religious institution.

All non-profit organizations (whether it's Greenpeace, the Red Cross, or you local homeless shelter) function in the exact same way, the fact that they are a church is irrelevant. If you don't make a profit from commercial activities you don't pay taxes. It's one of the core principles of fiscal science and also the law in most countries on this planet.

If you don't like it it is your right right as a citizen of your country to propose a change in the law.

The Catholic Church is just like any business, except it claims to be special. It's got enterprises and properties all over the world, and it gives away a portion of it's profits to charitable organisations it owns. There's nothing special about them.

And just like any business its offshore subsidiaries pay tax for the money they make. The only difference is that instead of transferring the profits to the company headquarters they donate them to Church itself, and they pay tax for those donations too (like I said above donations are tax deductible only up to a certain percentage).

[the man, the myth, the legend]

Do you really think the money it takes to run and maintain churches, pay living expenses for employees of the vatican. Education for priests, nuns, clergy, etc or any thing else they have to pay for can be covered by DONATIONS. Probably not these days anyway. They're taking it any way they can get it. I would do it too.

[Lazarus]

That hardly makes it right now, does it?

In fact, I retract my previous more diplomatic stance. The Church claims it's a moral authority - it has a higher standard to live up to than the rest of us.

[Diocle]

Mussolini after the murderer of the member of the Parlaiment Giacomo Matteotti, murderer executed by a squad of old Fascists friends of the Duce, discovered and condemned during a good trial in Rome, was politically a dead man! The king was ready to open the crisis of his Government, the most important newspapers advanced critics, and also in the Partito Nazionale Fascista was growing the discontent, the people for the first time have many doubts about Mussolini, so...what he did?

Two things:

1. In a legendary speach in the Parlaiment Mussolini refused the penal responsability for the crime but he accepted the full political responsability for the facts! As to say I'm still Mussolini, I get the power and if someone has to object something speak now, and here! The answer from the House of Parliament was silence, a deep and surreal silence.

2. Second step of the bastard was this: He signed the Concordato (pact) with the Catholic Church, untill then the Pope was like prisoner in the so called Holy Palaces, and the Italian State was excommunicated (for the reasons you have previously read), the church wasn't in any formal relation with the State (wonderful old times!) and the church didn't promove any political activity in Italy (openly), after the Concordato all changed, the Church gained the recognition as the State Religion, so money, money and money....Mussolini gained the total support of the church and of the moderate part of the public opinion to the Fascist Regime and most important thing to his personal position as leader. In this way started the second decade of the fascist Regime, now all the anticlericalism of the first Mussolini ened, now in the old documentaries of those years you can see Bishops and Cardianls in any public appearance of Mussolini, noe the regime was again strong and safe!

This is a sad story, a story of cowardy of an entire Nation, cowardy of the King and of the Parlaiment, and this is a criminal story of money, shameful interests, secret exchanges of favors and political duplicity.
Many, at this point, would say: Well a perfect Italian story then!
No, not exactly, because the Catholic church is not Italian, the Church of Rome is an international institution, Catholic is Bavaria, France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, a good proportion of citizens of the USA, Ireland, South America, and great parts of Africa and South East Asia. So, this fact, this exchange of political favours and money should be an international shame.

Why is it not so? Why is this only one of the infinite scandals of the Catholic Church and nothing changes? Why they don't feel the need of a deep work of moralization of their Church?

Well, this is my (very Italian) answer, if someone is interested read what follows if not, ciao!

They don't feel any shame, because this is their history from the time of Constantine, the Catholic Church is this, a political organization which as any political institution, follows his own interests, the Church is body and money, holy palaces with frescos of Michelangelo and political duplicity, holiness of action in someone and common political criminality in somone else, the Church of Rome is the more materialistic Institution of the world, private vices and public virtues this is the Catholic Church, from the time of their diabolic pact with Constantine: You, Caesar, give us the money and the material safety and we, the Church of Jesus, give you God! Nothing less than God Himself!
The pact worked and worked very well!...and it's still working of course.

A last thing, do you remeber the French Revolution? Three classes: Aristocracy, Clergy and the Bourgeoisie.
Well, actually, the Catholic Church is what remains of an old 'social class' of the 'Ancien regime', they accumulated lands, buildings, power, goods and money for two thousand years, they can self replicate and they has money to make more money, they are a true social 'class' and they must survive, only this they know: The Church must survive!....and, untill now, while the Aristocrats, poor people, lost their heads, the heads of the damn priests are still well planted in their slimy little balck bodies.
Hard people the Catholic priests....