Second rebellion; had 120, lost 80 provinces

[tungri_centurio]

i use onagers to in field battles,they used them also in real life mainly for causing havoc amongst their enemys
its the same as a modern army that has tanks and attack helicopters and dont use them to support their infantry

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Paladin',

Then I stand corrected and I apologise - I missed that one. I do, however, find it awfully gamey I'm afraid. Given all the battles the Romans fought, I remain fairly confident that artillery (normally sighted on the camp defences certainly) was not regularly used in field battles.

When it comes to the 'raising' new units vs training - I don't mean to use those new units, but use them to bring the original cohorts back to strength. I just wonder whether continually re-training as opposed to reinforcing works 'better'?

[Sertorio]

I do believe retraining works better, however for someone who wants to play historical, reinforcing would be the normal way at least while on campaign. But retraining tends to give you more chevrons. That and a few autoresolve battles.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

I do believe retraining works better, however for someone who wants to play historical, reinforcing would be the normal way at least while on campaign. But retraining tends to give you more chevrons. That and a few autoresolve battles.

Now that (bolded) I have noticed - except I don't auto-resolve any. Obviously loving my troops too much doesn't gain them the same experience(s).

[Paladin247]

Lord Tedric,

I've found a few more references to artillery in field battles. Two in Caesar's Commentaries, II, 8 and VIII, 14. Both refer to deployment of arty for potential use versus enemy troops, but in both cases the battle doesn't happen. Enemy says, "I don't thinks so; see ya another time" or some such.

The other is in Osphrey's Roman Battle Tactics 109BC-AD 313, pg 22, plate B, Arrian's battle vs. the Alani, AD 132. There is a crescent of ten artillery batteries behind the infantry lines. However, in the accompanying write up no mention of the arty is made. I'm not prepared to say that's why we don't hear much about artillery; but maybe it was so commonplace that the assumption was made that artillery was mostly present and involved. How often was it mentioned that javelins were thrown even tho they undoubtedly were in every battle? In any case I found these in a casual index search of just the books in my personal library. From what I can deduce, most contemporary accounts of artillery (Biton, Philon, Heron, Ammainus, etc.) are largely theses on how to build same and their ballistic characteristics in range and throw weight.

Multiple sources say that every cohort had an onager from ~100BC-AD200 and that the nine legionaries detailed as artillery men could assemble same in twenty minutes or less. That for me solves the accessability issue. Anywhere the baggage train could get close to, the legion could have artillery support. You just combat-load the baggage train with the stuff you need first at the front.

Multiple sources also state that there's very little written on onagers at all, other than the theses as cited. So there's probably no real way to resolve this issue and as I wrote above, I don't care, they use them on me, I'm going to do likewise.

Plus, listen, I spent thirty-one years on active duty in the real military, the US Navy. It just makes no sense to me that any leader would dismiss the use of a formidable weapon that could save his men's lives when he could do otherwise. I could care less whether it's "gamey" or not.

Real battle tactics are designed to place the enemy in as unfavorable a position as possible so you can stomp the daylights out of him while:
1. Achieving the mission
2. Maximizing enemy casualties
3. Minimizing own casualties.

Let's look at what that no artillery pre-battle speech might sound like.

"Men, you know me. I am a true Roman of the old school. I believe in virtue, valor and that Rome is destined to rule the world. I also believe in fair play on the battlefield; no gaming.

So today we are going to abandon our supremely effective four batteries of artillery support and allow our enemy to form up and engage not under fire so we may battle on a fairer level more true to our history.

I think this will provide us with more of a challenge and thus be more fun."

Sure; I can see that.

Battles are not basketball games; no element of mutual fairness presides.

That's how I play and I'm having great fun with the mod.

[Alkarin]

Are you playing on 0 or 1 turn recruitment?

[Paladin247]

Alkarin, thanks for the +rep and I'm playing on one turn recruitment. I played SPQR mod for a while which is zero turn and it seemed that battles were incessant as a result. Plus I play RSII 2.1a because when I started this campaign, the repeated rebellion bug hadn't been tamed and still may not be.

[High Fist]

It has been for 2.6, I believe. Do update us when you make a break-through won't you?

[Paladin247]

The amphibious invasions by Ist Adiutrix at Halicanarsis and XXIst Rapax at Patara have broken the deadlock against Armenia. The hope was this would divert their armies from the incessant cross channel invasions threatening Byzantion and it did. They left two stacks to defend Nicomedia on their side of the Dardanelles and moved south with the other two. We then launched our own cross channel operations with Ist Minervia and XIIIth Gemina attacking and defeating the two armies in front of Nicomedia and investing the city at a cost to us of 845 KIA while killing 4,556 Armenians. The Praetorians crossed over at Lysmachia with IVth Flavia Felix. The two Armenian armies proceeding south refused these incursions and continued on to engage XXIst Rapax at what would be the critical battles in this theater, first and second Battles at Petara Bridge. The Praetorians took Assos and the Flavia Felix attacked an army before the walls of Pergamon losing 44 KIA, killing 1415 and capturing the city

XXIst Rapax suffered some in the seige of Petara then took position defending Petara Bridge to the city's north down two cohorts, an ala of cav and some 50 legionaries short in the eagle cohort. So, eight cohorts of infantry, two of archers, a cav ala, four batteries of onagers and the legate's escort cav. We formed these up in our standard U-shaped bridge defense two cohorts deep with one on each corner, cav at bottom. Archers posted to either side and artillery outside the archers. The Armenians attacked first with a full army of over 4,100 men almost all infantry. This turned into the strangest bridge defense I've experienced. The Armenians came on in a T formation with the base of the T at their end of the bridge and then they just stood there except for their general at the head of an ala of archer cav who rode back and forth along the shoreline engaging our infantry. He did this one too many times and got killed by our archers, but this formation of theirs was negating our usually decisive artillery fire. They weren't providing that great target of massed infantry on their side of the bridge. That thin T line was hard to hit even by our level 8 artillerymen. After expending about 50% of our arty ammo and all the archers' arrows, we'd only killed 19% of them. We ceased artillery bombardment and tried to seduce an attack by sending the cavalry across to hit and run. This cost us forty troopers and did nothing. Problem was that only the first three to four Armenian cohorts in the bottom of their T were within our artillery range; when we wiped one out, the column would kind of shrug, move down one and halt. We recommenced artillery fire and when ammunition was exhausted, we'd killed 25%. Only ~3,100 to go and now it was going to be man to man. Our legionaries double timed across the bridge led by the eagle cohort with the first two across engaging the lead enemy cohort, pushing them back on their following unit. The top of their T, comprised of something like seven cohorts, now started to advance down, but they were like the space of six cohorts from the base. The base line of their T was trying to shake out, but our other six cohorts ran three up each side of their column so we came out in kind of an inverse pig's snout, essentially doubling the lower part of their T. The enemy's lower three cohorts collapsed and panicked after a rain of pilum from both their flanks and then it got ugly. There was still the upper part of their T line and the cross piece to deal with and they were now hitting the top of what had become an oval melee. There was this bulge of hundreds of the enemy's routing infantry surrounded in an oblong oval of our legionaries now being beset from the top by six cohorts of heavy infantry and an ala. By now our cav short ala and the legate were across and circling outside the melee. As our lower cohorts could break loose from the panicked enemy they would circle the oval to engage units at the top creating this layered club sandwich of panicked Armenians, legionaries, fresh Armenians and then legionaries and our cav. It was a chaotic mess. We had to throw the archers in as infantry. XXIst Rapax is not the best trained/most experienced legion in the army with almost all cohorts at level 4, altho they have my favorite shield pattern. Armenian armies now though are at least half comprised of level 1 recruits with the rest at 2 and 3. And that's what saved us, plus their earlier loss of the general. They just couldn't stand the press and once a few started to panic, the rest tried to flee. We lost 792 and killed 4,117.

The Armenians followed this immediately with a second army's assault against the XXIst about half the size of the first. We set the U shaped defense again, now a lot thinner by almost 800 men. This time though they came on immediately with the whole mass bunching up some so the artillery got their licks in. Their lead two cohorts panicked immediately and created mass disorder with the routers trying to get back across and the rest attempting to advance. This took a while, but was more of your standard bridgehead defense. We killed 2103 and lost 108; XXIst is down to four cohorts of infantry, one of archers and no cav except the legate's escort. The hospital ships have the rest.

In the southern Levant, we have taken Rapina and have Rhinocolora and Petra under seige. The Armenians had a full stack garrison in Jerusalem (Ierasoiyma) and another just outside the northern city walls. We attacked with Xth Fretensis and XXIInd Deiotariana. This was a rout. Both legions are solid level 5/6 and went thru the Armenians like they were Girl Scouts. We lost 539, killed 5037 and took the city.

In all since the amphib invasions went ashore that kicked this off, we've had sixteen battles against Armenia in this year of 805 AUC and killed 32,013 for the cost of 3,470 legionaries.

Our scouts can't find any significant forces in western Anatolia save an army demonstrating east of Nicomedia bridge in front of the XIIIth Gemina and the full stack garrison at their capital, Gardium.

At the top of the Levant around Tarsus and Antioch there are three and a half armies milling about. If they send them all south, it could get interesting for a while. If they send some west and some south, they're toast. Altho they still seem able to bring a full stack once in a while out of the desert east of Damascus.

I've been wrong before, but seems like this crisis is on the wane.

[High Fist]

The southern coast of the Black Sea is ripe for a naval invasion, if you have the resources. Even to cause havoc and stretch the Armenians thin all over the map.

You'd think they would have more armies or at least stronger ones. It's a large empire they have.

[Paladin247]

High Fist, resources are about to become available. Xth Equestris and XVth Appolinaris have been beseiging the Greek holdings at Vibantarium and C. Alonzes for quite a while and they are now one GT from falling. Both these provinces had huge garrisons and I won't waste the flower of my infantry assaulting well manned fortifications; normally just starve them out. So they'll be on the prowl shortly.

Thanks again for the +rep.

[Roma_Victrix]

This thread has been immensely insightful. That's +1 rep for you, Paladin. Are you also a fan of the Stainless Steel mod, perhaps?

I'm currently playing as Rome, it is 585 AUC and have just defeated Carthage. I've got 67 settlements, so the second rebellion is not too far down the road for me!

[Paladin247]

Roma_Victrix, thanks for the +rep and kind words. Yes, I've played Stainless Steel to conclusion twice as England and once as I think Milan, guys in NE Italy w/ the cool uniforms. Another mod I enjoyed immensely was Broken Crescent which I played as the Crusader States and wrote a similar but longer campaign thread that got condensed and stickied. The moderator there, Wudang_Clown, is a prince and we got very friendly.

I noticed you're from Fairfax. My location is listed as San Diego, but we have a condo in Alexandria, VA as well; my wife likes it there. Altho honestly, was up to me, we'd just have the one in SD.

The second rebellion normally is nowhere close to this from what I've read. If yours is anything like the one I had in my previous campaign, it'll be more of a pain to slog thru than a gigantic crisis.

[Paladin247]

It is the summer of 821 AUC and the war is over. I got the victory message long ago, but when I started this campaign, my goal was to roughly duplicate the furthest expanse of the empire and to do it in the sequence they did. I've sort of done that. From the time of my last post in early August, I didn't think it would take this long to finish, but the Armenians proved resilient and numerous. Even now at the end, according to the in-game line graphs, they have 2.1 million men under arms with a total population under a million, nifty trick.

The last provinces we had to take were those at the northern end of the Levant, Antioch, Laodikeia and Damascus which we besieged for over three years, they all fell in the summer of 820 which left only Trapezius off to the north which was just taken by Ist Minervia. In the two years leading up to the climax in 820, the Armenians hurled armies two at a time against the bridge at Laodikeia defended by IIIIth Scythica. This cost them the flower of what remained of their armies, 26,740 men in two years at a cost to the IIIIth of 672 legionaries and auxiliaries. When I first encountered the Armenians, they were a fearsome lot as related above, but now they are beyond fielding their best units. Almost never see cataphracts except as a general's escort. In fact cavalry of any kind has been pretty rare, mostly their armies have been comprised solely of infantry and poor quality at that. They can still field some well armored units, but almost always level 1 or 2 conscripts plus maybe one cohort at level 3 in the whole of a full stack army. These guys haven't stood a slim chance against our veterans. IIIIth Scythica doesn't have a cohort lower than level 5. it's murder.

In the course of the war, we've fought 2097 battles, losing 98, almost all in the second civil war. I almost never auto-resolve. The legions finished with a kill ratio of 7.98:1. Rome lost 266,338. Among the leading enemies, losses were: Armenia 550,203, Greeks 492,097, Roman Rebels 274,670. The most battle scarred legion was Vth Macedonica which fought 83 battles, all against the Greeks. I started this campaign on 25SEP12, thirteen months ago. It's been a lot of fun; helps to have a tolerant wife.

As we've been winding down, I've found myself spending more time admiring my legionaries knowing I won't be seeing them for a while. I have Rome II, but haven't played hardly at all. It's still getting hate mail at the bulk rate and while you can name your legions, not having RS2's unique uniforms, shield patterns and vexillum insignia, they seem a feeble rendition indeed. Perhaps the modding community will come thru at some point.

I played this campaign with 2.1a. Down the road I'll probably try 2.6 altho a lot of the cursus honorum role play like stuff doesn't interest me all that much.

To all those who have followed our exploits and written nice comments, thanks again; hope to see you in another thread.

Roma Victorii

[Kenny Works]

May I say I've really enjoyed reading this entire thread today? Amazing and inspiring accomplishment. Congratulations.

[High Fist]

Bravo sir, bravo.

[tungri_centurio]

+rep paladin.ive enjoyed reading this awesome threat.hope to see you soon with a new campaign using 2.6
Mutch respect.

[tungri_centurio]

+rep paladin.ive enjoyed reading this awesome threat.hope to see you soon with a new campaign using 2.6
Mutch respect.

[High Fist]

Will you do Rome again or another faction if you go for v2.6?

[Paladin247]

High Fist, I always play as Rome. I've read a fair amount about the legions in both history and fiction. Seeing them come alive in this terrific mod is remarkable and doesn't get old. I am aggravated at the Rome II crowd for not having done likewise. Just imagine what dvk and his henchmen could have done with CA's budget. It would have watered your eyes.