TRUE SAMURAI final

[VENNONETES]

Bravo fra!

[GERMANICUS]

YESSSSSSSSS the Ishida have spawned as rebels and their flags are shown !! So now instead of those boring dull rebels we have 5 historica clans ( Kuroda, Ishida , Hosokawa , Toyotomi and Ukita ) ...that of course is only an aesthetic change ( becuase you cant establish diplomatic relations with them and they will not expand ) that give more historical flavour ...but but ...im thinking about changing the unuseful Portuguese and Wako faction into the Ukita and the Toyotomi so they could act as true emergent factions ...i will think about it .

Excellant! The exemption of the generic rebels is a real break through! Well done FRA70.

[Cellfish]

I have questions... two to be precise

so, the first one would be

Is it possible to mod the ships in such a niche that they arent viable anymore

second question is

can you make it harder at the beginning? Dont know how, but somehow

[Ygge]

viable? I hope you mean "visible"

[Cellfish]

no viable it uhm... "disturbs" me that ships are an "Gamplay-corpse".
They are awful to play and the classes are somewhat unoriginal... (Fire Bomb-Kobaya... WTF?!)
I hate to build a lot of ships and then the ai suddenly pushes out far more then i could ever build and sink all of em...
ok, fra i know you dont want to mod much more so i could turn a blind eye on these things ;P [or probably these ideas are as stupid as (Grenade throwing Ninja-nuns ;P)]

[Fra70]

no viable it uhm... "disturbs" me that ships are an "Gamplay-corpse".
They are awful to play and the classes are somewhat unoriginal... (Fire Bomb-Kobaya... WTF?!)
I hate to build a lot of ships and then the ai suddenly pushes out far more then i could ever build and sink all of em...
ok, fra i know you dont want to mod much more so i could turn a blind eye on these things ;P [or probably these ideas are as stupid as (Grenade throwing Ninja-nuns ;P)]

When i started the mod i had the idea to remove totally ships ..agents and silly units . Ive removed the land silly units , ive reduced agents to 1 ( removing them completely would have touched too many sensitive things ) and ive greatly reduced naval importance ( capped ships , trade routes can be blocked only at 50% and not anymore at 90% , less money from naval routes ) but removing them completely in a 12 turns/year game i thought it was a bit too drastic and removed a strategic level from the whole game . Can i remove silly ships ? Yes i can do but honestly naval engagements in Shogun 2 are soooo boring ( while are very fun in all the others Total war games ) that i dont think that any of us play more that 1 or 2 naval engagement in the whole campaign ...so i think would be really wasted modding time . Of course i can do it if there is a wide request :p

[Cellfish]

you`re right ! to be Honest i can ignore those ships very well Last game tokugawa build so much ships and all they did was just blocking one port with the full stack ...

[Fra70]

things to do
-i want to try to change the wako and portugal factions into ukita and toyotomi emergent ones ..will not be easy because wako and portugal trigger alot of events ...
-ive to implement the new faction ( dont exist a proper tutorial about that so im learning slowly )
-fix sounds ( last thing to do )

[ZilverZamp]

Thank you for your good response Fra70!

I see now what you mean and my view is altered a bit
Also, I have yet to see any bow units gaining any rank above 3rd. Due to the fact that experience is directly linked to kills, which in term is a game flaw. Thus nothing can be done.

However I got a bit of inspiration and came up with an idea that is ridiculously complex though might be quite good. Here goes.

As an archer if one has direct line of sight of ones enemy, one would fire in a low more powerful arch towards the enemy(mimicking matchlock units), whereas one does not arch fire(regular arch firing) is needed.
Is this something that is doable game wise? Or would Shogun 2 take only the AI of either Gun or Archer AI?
If this could be implemented direct archer fire would be devastating until one can connect with the enemy where they would need the low accuracy arch to fire from behind their own lines.
Ofcourse, it would be nothing compared to matchlock fire but something one would avoid at all costs.

The only time one sees this naturally happening in a battle is at sieges where you can see that the archers direct low arch fire is far more deadly than the high arch.


Regards ZilverZamp.

[Fra70]

One thing that i wanted to reach is making people care more about their units and that will help more raising experience
people should care more because 1) it take alot more turns to build them 2) production sites should be very few due to the upkeep costs of military infrastructures
I know that there are some mods that have worked on the mechanics of arrows and bows ( ivent tested that ) and what you say makes perfect sense ...however that will require me to go in uncharted territory so for now ive to go with results that are plausible for me in a realistic battle ,,,maybe one day when the mod is finished i will make everyone happy and work on bow's mechanics :p

[gamesguy]

Hey Fra70 I gotta say I'm loving your mod so far, just one concern though.
I started a new campaign as the ikko ikki recently and it feels like they're really weak except during the first couple of turns. They don't get more advanced ashigaru, any samurai units, the hero units, and their warrior monks lose horribly to basically any samurai despite being more vulnerable to arrows and costing about the same. Even yari samurai will beat the warrior monks with more than 50% men remaining. Plus their bow units are worse than normal which combined with the stronger samurai armor means one hero unit can cut through half my army.

I'm in the mid game now and just don't understand how they're supposed to be played. I knew from the start that everyone will hate me(all neighbors declared war on me by turn 5), but having weaker, yet still the costly, armies on top of that is just too much.

[Fra70]

Hey Fra70 I gotta say I'm loving your mod so far, just one concern though.
I started a new campaign as the ikko ikki recently and it feels like they're really weak except during the first couple of turns. They don't get more advanced ashigaru, any samurai units, the hero units, and their warrior monks lose horribly to basically any samurai despite being more vulnerable to arrows and costing about the same. Even yari samurai will beat the warrior monks with more than 50% men remaining. Plus their bow units are worse than normal which combined with the stronger samurai armor means one hero unit can cut through half my army.

I'm in the mid game now and just don't understand how they're supposed to be played. I knew from the start that everyone will hate me(all neighbors declared war on me by turn 5), but having weaker, yet still the costly, armies on top of that is just too much.

I admit that ivent tested the ikko ikki faction and i didnt received any feedback about them ..i just tried to make them historically accurate !! What ive saw is that under the AI they rule the field in the first years ( they expand alot ) so i did think that they were more than ok ... i promise that i will test them before releasing version 3 ..meanwhile i can suggest only to change tactics ..they have great cheap numbers with high morale ..so if you use the new fatigue rules you should be able to tire the enemy before they reach you best units ...anyway i promise i will test them deep !!

[ZilverZamp]

Originally Posted by gamesguy
Hey Fra70 I gotta say I'm loving your mod so far, just one concern though.
I started a new campaign as the ikko ikki recently and it feels like they're really weak except during the first couple of turns. They don't get more advanced ashigaru, any samurai units, the hero units, and their warrior monks lose horribly to basically any samurai despite being more vulnerable to arrows and costing about the same. Even yari samurai will beat the warrior monks with more than 50% men remaining. Plus their bow units are worse than normal which combined with the stronger samurai armor means one hero unit can cut through half my army.

I'm in the mid game now and just don't understand how they're supposed to be played. I knew from the start that everyone will hate me(all neighbors declared war on me by turn 5), but having weaker, yet still the costly, armies on top of that is just too much.



QUOTE=Fra70;12632311]Fra70I admit that ivent tested the ikko ikki faction and i didnt received any feedback about them ..i just tried to make them historically accurate !! What ive saw is that under the AI they rule the field in the first years ( they expand alot ) so i did think that they were more than ok ... i promise that i will test them before releasing version 3 ..meanwhile i can suggest only to change tactics ..they have great cheap numbers with high morale ..so if you use the new fatigue rules you should be able to tire the enemy before they reach you best units ...anyway i promise i will test them deep !![/QUOTE]

I've tried the ikko-ikki campaign many times but I just don't like their play style so I quit.

Two major things about ikko-ikko:

1) Incite revolt everywhere with your monk. The rebels will be Ikko-Ikki and if they conquer a castle you will get a new province with a free army already made.

2) Ikko-ikko is an defensive zerg. Make a cresent or box shape with as many layers as possible with ashigaru 4-5 ranks deep in spearwall. Units that loose half their members disengage and let a fresh one behind take over, also in spear wall.

2a) Your army will look like this. Black lines represent ashigaru. Red lines represent archers. Blue line your general.
By doing this the enemy will tire themselves to death often and rout with large numbers still intact, use your general to swipe it all up.
Ashigaru units in spearwall will lose fatigue if idle to long in that stance, use it wisely. However a supported spearwall will not break easily to any unit.



Hope this helps!


Regards, ZilverZamp.

[ZilverZamp]

As I am a retard and dont know how to insert an image, here is the link to the formation.

[Ygge]

For you mate!

[VENNONETES]

Mmmm, fra is the guy with smoking who sits in the blue square?

[gamesguy]

Hmm, I tried that defensive zerg tactic you described but what do I do if the AI brings archers? Bow samurai in particular just tears me to pieces and ikko ikki archers with their reduced stats are too poor to win a ranged duel...

[Plan C]

Fra - played the mod first time last night and I really like what you did. I like how you can actually have some muscle with just your home province, I think the balance of tech and build times to 12 per year is pretty good although makes the game a little easier because you get to spend less money. Buildings are a lot more expensive (except the roads, nice) but also take a lot longer to build so income adds up nicely.

I'm about 50 turns in and having a sweet war with imagawa and takeda on 2 fronts, playing as tokugawa on hard. Oda took out saito early on and imagawa actually sailed around me on a boat to Owari and took it, then pretty quickly Mino as well. Oda were moving into Omi to attak kitabatake (who beat asai earlier) even as imagawa were coming their way so their army just disappeared, tough break. I had been building ashigaru for a while by then and reckoned I could take them so I took Totomi. Takeda decided to join imagawa in the end and came to attack me in totomi (main army I think because it was daimyo-led) but it wasn't that strong, actually, I beat them in a siege and killed Shingen as well. Imagawa are sitting in Mino with the main army but are building troops everywhere, just taking a long time so I'm just on my way to take Suruga and waiting for imagawa in Mikawa building ashigaru with my daimyo and 2 starting yari samurai.

The siege battle was very good mate, takeda had some light cavalry, mostly ashigaru levy, 4 ashigaru bow and I think one yari samurai and 2 generals. Ashigaru levy had naginatas which was sweet and they look good. I think bows were not weak at all and definitely did the job. Light cav were outstanding but unlucky because I sallied after beating their infantry and trapped them against a river bank but they lasted pretty well against even yari ashigaru. Yari samurai are now really good, so are samurai retainers which kick ass, actually. I can really see them holding castles on their own with a few ashigaru for cover unless against heavy armies, very good.

Seeing as light cavalry lasted so well I instantly queued red devils in totomi, that's an excellent idea with those units btw, really gives your army a really good feel. I still got like 9 turns to go as I'm building yari sams as well. Units really take ages now but it feels right.


I have 3 overall comments:

1. Units are pretty small, was that by design? On ultra I have samurai units 75 strong and yari ashigaru have 100. Feels more cosy maybe but I think I'm going to bump the numbers up just a bit. I like my battles big

2. Do you know if realistic blood mods are compatible with True Samurai? I think blood splattering on the screen is a bit much tbh

3. Having played Sengoku I would maybe even change the whole recruitment system to be more like that game, I.e. have levy units with a massive upkeep but 0 turn recruitment and have professional retinue capped and with a more manageable upkeep (so that levies are only raised for a specific war not just wondering around). I would make that the first tier of the army, so that you have a core of professional samurai and a levy raised for a short time to fight a war. You could also raise additional samurai as levy but those levy-samurai would have a big upkeep too. Once you have, say, terrace farming you can recruit professional asbigaru which are a good bit better than levy but a bit weaker than real samurai. Think attendants in RoTS maybe. Those would have a slightly higher upkeep than professional samurai but nowhere near as high as levy. You could raise maybe 1500 levy soldiers, a mix of samurai and ashigaru in a province like Mikawa in a single turn and use them for a few good turns but they should cost collectively somewhere in the region of 1500 per turn as well. Professional ashigaru cost would be somewhere like a 600 koku for 16 units capped per province and samurai would be capped at 3 units per province and cost about 250 koku in total or so. They're landowners so they owe me service, right? So perhaps a unit of cavalry and 2 units of infantry with a choice of yari or bow? Or is that a bit too simple? I'm not sure if AI could even handle this.

Overall i really get what you wanted from the game, I really like the way the game works now, it feels like exactly what I wanted from a TW game. Great job man, I will spend many long hours playing this whenever possible and I will let you know how I get on. Cheers.

[Fra70]

1. Units are pretty small, was that by design? On ultra I have samurai units 75 strong and yari ashigaru have 100. Feels more cosy maybe but I think I'm going to bump the numbers up just a bit. I like my battles big

ive found a good tactical balance at that level ... paints show that units were on few ranks and on a wide front ...if i give you a 200 men unit you can be deep and wide and that ( due to map sizes ) will destroy the tactical part . also with a 8 units reinforcements range battles expecially late in the game tend to be with alot of units and with many factions...of corse is my ideaof samurai battles

2. Do you know if realistic blood mods are compatible with True Samurai? I think blood splattering on the screen is a bit much tbh

no problems

3. Having played Sengoku I would maybe even change the whole recruitment system to be more like that game, I.e. have levy units with a massive upkeep but 0 turn recruitment and have professional retinue capped and with a more manageable upkeep (so that levies are only raised for a specific war not just wondering around). I would make that the first tier of the army, so that you have a core of professional samurai and a levy raised for a short time to fight a war. You could also raise additional samurai as levy but those levy-samurai would have a big upkeep too. Once you have, say, terrace farming you can recruit professional asbigaru which are a good bit better than levy but a bit weaker than real samurai. Think attendants in RoTS maybe. Those would have a slightly higher upkeep than professional samurai but nowhere near as high as levy. You could raise maybe 1500 levy soldiers, a mix of samurai and ashigaru in a province like Mikawa in a single turn and use them for a few good turns but they should cost collectively somewhere in the region of 1500 per turn as well. Professional ashigaru cost would be somewhere like a 600 koku for 16 units capped per province and samurai would be capped at 3 units per province and cost about 250 koku in total or so. They're landowners so they owe me service, right? So perhaps a unit of cavalry and 2 units of infantry with a choice of yari or bow? Or is that a bit too simple? I'm not sure if AI could even handle this.

Its true and would be even more historical , of course is not easy to be implemented , hazbones is trying something like that in his mod ( and hes the first trying something like that ) . In my mid ashigaru tend to have an higher upkeep ( confronted to their recruitment cost and their efficacity) but they are faster to recruit and they are not capped , also in my mod ashigaru are tied to farmland . Someone who play my mod even disband his ashigaru troops when in peace ( due to the slow pace of my mod and reliable alliances ) . Of course when you are alone modding you cant go deep in every direction ( the advantage is that you can go ahead with a coherent work ) .

I hope you will even like more version 3 ( last one ) actually under work

[Fra70]

Im having some problems switching Sakai to playable ( to change them into the Asakura ) and make the Hattori unplayable ...i fear that this problem can be because the hattori are basically a DLC clan . I hope to find a solution in the next days ...if not i will have to go with plan B ( making the Asakura in the game but as a minor and changing the whole Hattori faction into a more realistic Iga Ikki ) ...lets see .