TRUE SAMURAI final

[ShinXari]

There is another question i wish to discuss... the units size.

While a lot of people like to play with enormous armies, i always wondered what whas the true size of armies and units in the sengoku period.

I mean...how many men for an Ashigaru unit or a cavalry one should be considered more close to their historical numbers?

[Fra70]

i think that like every battle of ancient times the actual fighing force was much smaller than the troops deployed on the field ALSO you have to take care of what actual gameplay is ... its nice to see enormous armies clashing but the gameplay is dead . So my aim was to find a way to be "being tactical" but without being lame ( so avoiding the possibility to poweplay against the AI ) and of course mantaining the big spectacle of great battles . Also its impossible to implement the "clan" thing ...i mean the fact that each commander did lead his own troops ..maybe that can be implemented a bit pushing units to act irrationally but i dont even know if some rows of the database are active or not .

meanwhile im a 1558 in my campaign with mori and the map is about the same ...im very pleased about things work ...im playing a relaxed campaign with Mori and im at peace from about 5 years after some hard campaigns . Ive got all the time to improve my economy and my troops .
Of course im also compiling a list of ( very small ) modifications needed for version 3 , for example i want to tie the late ashigaru to spear expertise otherwise they are avaiable too early ( around 1555-58 )

[PumkinKing]

After i only read the posts, i want to write again something. My campaign is goes into the hot phase. After i backstabbed the Sagara i got into Realm Divide ( Alliance since beginn of the campaign, but they had some of my goal provinces ). All the powerfull clans are now my enemies (only Takaoka they stay with me ). The Ashina made a invasion with their fleet and so an big samurai army stayed infont of my gates. They directly attacked the Fort (Garrision, 1x Asuna Samurai, 4 x Ukita Ashigaru). I was not able to win, but i damaged the army so much that it was really easy to get the castle back. I the interim i crashed my long time enemy Mori and gettet the lord of the South(or West ) of Japan. At the moment i killed an enemy army wich tried to invade me (killed them all with an ambush).

All is working fine so far and i have nothing to criticize (maybe i have a bit to much money, but iam recruit a 2nd army at the moment so this money should be away really fast . will use some more ashigaru after the most in my main army died, after the war with Sagara)

here a picture of the map (before i ambushed the enemy!)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

6 turns for Samurai units to recruit. That's tad bit too long (4 turns should be optimal imho. 5 or 6 then for the Hatamoto's)
Don't see AI recruiting that many samurai if any at all. Seen all of my opponents to just spam Ashigaru. Probably because of the training times.

12 turns a year, the recruit times are perfect like they are.

I will want to find a way to calm down the situation in Kyushu ..probably i will have to delete some pre existing wars for version 3 ( or maybe delete ALL the pre existing wars ... )...

Wouldnt this destroy the campaign balance?

P.S. i really like how every campaign other clans get the overhand over japan

[Fra70]

Pumpking you have the new version with rebellions on ? or you have the first V2 release with the rebellions bug ?

btw 1564 is 19 years x 12 = 228 turns that is 1602 in vanilla terms

P.S. i really like how every campaign other clans get the overhand over japan

yes before a major clan got 1200 each turn ..and a minor only 800 ...now is 1100 for a major and 900 for a minor ..so every minor can compete a bit more
and i think that make every campaign a bit different

[PumkinKing]

Pumpking you have the new version with rebellions on ? or you have the first V2 release with the rebellions bug ?

yes i use the newest version ( but i used an old save game, on the other side i saw many rebellsions in this campaign so it should work completly?)

btw 1564 is 19 years x 12 = 228 turns that is 1602 in vanilla terms

yes, and ?

[Fra70]

so its acceptable that there are big clans ...however in my campaign no one is able to be dominant ( i will eat them one by one )

[MagicCuboid]

I'll chime in with my impressions, which are overwhelmingly positive:

1) I finally feel like I can take a breath in Shogun 2 and plan without constantly fighting, recruiting, fighting, recruiting. The battles are finally meaningful! Capturing one key province is finally meaningful! It's a great feeling.

2) I love the "quality over quantity" composition of the armies. There are very interesting decisions to be made, both in recruitment times and in upkeep. The game mechanics guide my hand toward heavily focusing on Samurai in the early turns, and then shifting focus to Ashigaru as I run low on money, just like in history. I also tend to keep my Samurai and disband all but my most veteran Ashigaru in periods of peace, and it's all thanks to the slight guiding hand of your game mechanics.

3) I finally have a sense of "war time" and "peace time". Additionally, a "defensive" war starts to feel very different from an "offensive" war because of my recruiting policies.

4) (minor) The "music bug" I mentioned in version 1 is gone! Just to confirm.

So, an A+ job Fra70 for producing (singlehandedly!) a great mod .

Some suggestions/bugs of note:

1) I had to abandon my Tokugawa campaign. I was able to declare war and ask for alliances *until* I destroyed the Imagawa, but curiously, afterwards I was unable to do either because the game treated me as a vassal. I thought, perhaps, the bug wanted me to destroy Oda too, but because I was unable to declare war I wasn't able to do anything about it. Besides, in my campaign I very much wanted to help Oda to do well. I spent about 6 turns after I defeated Imagawa with this bug enacted... I'll continue to beta test a bit to see if it ever goes away on its own.

In the mean time, perhaps I could convince you to release an alternative version which keeps the vassal relationship? I agree that it harms the historical feeling of the map when AI controlled, but it would be useful for those who want to play as Tokugawa.

2) I also noticed the "cannon-sound" of Oda Bow Ashigaru. I believe the FOTS horn sounds have also been limited, so far, to the Shimazu Katana Samurai. I've run Sinfonia Semplice but the bug hasn't gone away, so you may be right about cloning sound files in for version 3 . I'll start a list of any units I notice "effected" ( I can't help myself... )

That's basically it! Continue the great work and maybe take a break here and there for some coffee!

[PumkinKing]

so its acceptable that there are big clans ...however in my campaign no one is able to be dominant ( i will eat them one by one )

in this case you should make your mod more difficult tell me more when real divide comes and all people are against you^^. in my opion you should "eat" kyushu first so you have no 2 front war.

[Nokter]

Just conquered Kawachi province, happy that i will put my hands on the Hosokawa Naginata Samurai. But my joy was overshadowed by a little issue, the special building used for the special unit is placed on the very spot Kawachi farmlands was before, therefore we get a province without any rice production at all. Was this planed?

[Fra70]

1) I had to abandon my Tokugawa campaign. I was able to declare war and ask for alliances *until* I destroyed the Imagawa, but curiously, afterwards I was unable to do either because the game treated me as a vassal. I thought, perhaps, the bug wanted me to destroy Oda too, but because I was unable to declare war I wasn't able to do anything about it. Besides, in my campaign I very much wanted to help Oda to do well. I spent about 6 turns after I defeated Imagawa with this bug enacted... I'll continue to beta test a bit to see if it ever goes away on its own.

thats strange because it went away in my campaign ..of course its something that must be addressed for the final version ..i just hope its possible to address it

2) I also noticed the "cannon-sound" of Oda Bow Ashigaru. I believe the FOTS horn sounds have also been limited, so far, to the Shimazu Katana Samurai. I've run Sinfonia Semplice but the bug hasn't gone away, so you may be right about cloning sound files in for version 3 . I'll start a list of any units I notice "effected" ( I can't help myself... )

lets really hope its something so evident ...of course ivent cloned the oda , are there from the beginning i just gave them a new uniform and a new icon ( that is of course the old one of the ashigaru ) and new stats ( and that should trigger the cannon sounds )...so its strange that is not healed by the sinfonia semplice ..we will see

Just conquered Kawachi province, happy that i will put my hands on the Hosokawa Naginata Samurai. But my joy was overshadowed by a little issue, the special building used for the special unit is placed on the very spot Kawachi farmlands was before, therefore we get a province without any rice production at all. Was this planed? Today 10:49 AM

na dont worry , the benefits of the rice fields are still there ( you will see them if you pass with the cursor over the new building ) .... are not upgradable but are already well developed.
The same is for every building that was substituted by the clan's house .

[Practiti0ner1]

try to repeat the Sinfonia Semplice procedure , i will check that too

probably also ive forgot some "sounds" and voice acting from a couple of units i cloned at the beginning from FOTS units ( an error ive payed dearly ) , i will clean that for the version 3 release ...that should be very rare .

Yea I've Tried the Sinfonia Semplice Procedure, I've never been able to get it to work, lol so i must be doing it wrong but either way its just a minor annoyance.

[ShinXari]

i think that like every battle of ancient times the actual fighing force was much smaller than the troops deployed on the field ALSO you have to take care of what actual gameplay is ... its nice to see enormous armies clashing but the gameplay is dead . So my aim was to find a way to be "being tactical" but without being lame ( so avoiding the possibility to poweplay against the AI ) and of course mantaining the big spectacle of great battles . Also its impossible to implement the "clan" thing ...i mean the fact that each commander did lead his own troops ..maybe that can be implemented a bit pushing units to act irrationally but i dont even know if some rows of the database are active or not .

meanwhile im a 1558 in my campaign with mori and the map is about the same ...im very pleased about things work ...im playing a relaxed campaign with Mori and im at peace from about 5 years after some hard campaigns . Ive got all the time to improve my economy and my troops .
Of course im also compiling a list of ( very small ) modifications needed for version 3 , for example i want to tie the late ashigaru to spear expertise otherwise they are avaiable too early ( around 1555-58 )

I totally agree. That has also always been my opinion in every Total War...opposed to the philosophy of mods like the Darthmod wich encourage 2x and even greater units (wich also make the soldiers stutter even on a not so low system like mine). Ancient and medieval battles were indeed often smaller than what we were made to think...also because as Sun Tzu always stressed in his "Art of War", it is wiser to sabotage the enemy's resources rather than assembling a massive army that would only have a very negative effect on a reign's economy. Also the japanese sengoku context was made of wars between Han wich were indeed very small compared to the clash of armies between entire nations.

As we can see in the game...smaller units are also far more easier to command and control in the heat and chaos of the battlefield... so granting a more tactical way of gameplay rather than a simple "spamming" one.

[Fra70]

Its time to make a list of "to do" things for the final version 3 .

- adding a new faction that remove the hattori clan , it will be a quite different faction
- solving every kind of sound problems
- tie the late ashigaru to spear expertise , make shock samurai to be more difficult to be obtained too
- make the arrows researches more appetible , otherwise one go directly for muskets
- changing clothes to ashigaru archers
- solving the togukawa diplomatic problem

If possible
-make sieges last longer
-make that rebels are less religious mobs but more old clans reborn

Mybe correct that
-Zocs are too strong
-make people hate you more if you are a big clan

[Fra70]

best proof of a cai that work

nation divide in 1570... still many clans ...allies with you ...east vs west ... big battles with alot of different clans

[MagicCuboid]

Looks great ! Loving the list of changes for 3rd edition. I'm glad the Hattori are getting replaced; I've just never had the desire to play them. May I recommend a faction west of Kyoto, like the Ukita, or perhaps Hosokawa? That's where the regions are the most dense, and yet there are the fewest factions to play. Besides, I love those two factions anyway .

Also I agree ShinXari, and well put. I used to think "bigger is better", and yet always was confused why Shogun 2 felt so, well, sloppy compared to Medieval 2. With True Samurai, I'm very pleased to have a feeling of tactics again. Very often my battles are won, or my flanks secured, but "sending in the reserves" or shifting focus of one or two Samurai units, just as it should feel.

[Gorhaax]

Its time to make a list of "to do" things for the final version 3 .

- adding a new faction that remove the hattori clan , it will be a quite different faction
- solving every kind of sound problems
- tie the late ashigaru to spear expertise , make shock samurai to be more difficult to be obtained too
- make the arrows researches more appetible , otherwise one go directly for muskets
- changing clothes to ashigaru archers
- solving the togukawa diplomatic problem

If possible
-make sieges last longer
-make that rebels are less religious mobs but more old clans reborn

Mybe correct that
-Zocs are too strong
-make people hate you more if you are a big clan

Sounds like a good plan! I find myself raiding a lot more with this mod, especially if I don't have a big enough army.

[Fra70]

there is a POLL !! Vote for the new faction you want !!

[Cellfish]

I cant vote :/ BUT I WANT SO BAD!

[ShinXari]

The Asai or the Asakura wouldn't have made a bad addition but.... i think i'll vote for the Toyotomi... even if their rise to power is relatively late in the period.

[DeMolay]

I voted Asakura cause that is a unbelievable mistake of CA to have ignored them , we are talking about one of the most powerful clan of central Japan at the time and the third largest and most populated city of Japan (Ichijodani in Echizen) , along with their allies Asai they could muster more men than Saito Dosan , and even Nobunaga who could rely on troops from all over Owari-Mino and half Omi+Kyoto had a hard time overcoming them in the early 70's

Hosokawa were almost irrelevant by that time to be honest , Nanban faction would feel strange as i thought the intention of your mod was to give more credibility , Toyotomi would make sense however how can they be implemented separately from the Oda , it would be anachronical perhaps , unless you script a civil war once Oda reaches realm divide perhaps

For me the only sensible choice would be Asakura from a historical and credible point of view , but i wish you the best , thanks for your work , i tried it yesterday , i liked how the CAI has troubles to make Ghengis Khan -like conquest in less than 50 turns now , it makes more sense now , i still find the samurais too strong but i respect your design choice , cheers

edit: Well perhaps if it's too much troubles to add Asakura , maybe you could add the Ryuzoji clan of Kyushu and give them Hizen , since we have the Shoni who didn't exist anymore past 1560 , but i think adding the Asakura would be great , i don't remember a mod that did it , maybe you could relocate Hongwanji Ikko-ikki's in their Settsu historical stronghold