TRUE SAMURAI final

[delanis]

Summed up your mod is awesome and its a shame that you want to end after that 3 Versions.^^

This.

[Fra70]

Hey i want to play too huh

Today ive finished the icons for the new units ...this evening i will get my first taste about inserting new buildings ..lets hope everything will go well ...

Beware to not go forward without having a good economy behind...in my mod is difficult that a clan become very very big so take it easy .

[Fra70]

IT WOOOOOOORRRRKKSSSSSS

thanks to the hazbone's tutorial ive managed to put all the 10 new clan buildings at work !!!
unfortunately each building substitute a resource of the province but i will work on data to be sure that the new building give the same benefits of the old one ( even if it will be no upgradable ..so i will go for medium benefits )

so happy

[MagicCuboid]

Congratulations to you and good credit to Hazbones! Both of your mods are filling a much needed niche for historical accuracy . It's also really fun to see my little unit picked up, I originally made them as "tutorial units" to teach myself how to edit these things. Though I'm sure you've already rebalanced them, I had originally based their stats against vanilla but I'm sure they were too powerful as they were.

[Fra70]

NEw stats for special clan units ( and a complete visual change )

Shimazu Katana -1 armor +5 Melee defence
ODa Ashigaru various changes somethimes a +1 in morale or armor or melee attacks
Uesugu monks ( that now look much less as monks ) +5 charge
Takeda Cavalry +1 morale +2 Vs Cavalry
Date No dachi +2 armor +1 morale
Chosokabe archers +5 acc +5 reload +5 ammo -2armor -1 MA
Otomo gunners +5 acc +2 armor

of course every unit have more cap space

things to do before release of version 2

- reowrking diplomacy between Oda-Togukawa+Imagawa ( a pain ... ) -tomorrow
- changing armor variants for each clan special units ( quite fast ) -today
- minor tweaks regarding UI cards ( very fast)
- testing it a bit

so we are getting very close ... the problem is of course is the diplomacy thing , it can work in a few hours or it can never work properly and i will have to set back to neutrality for everyon .
Anyway a release for sunday is very probable .

[VENNONETES]

Bravo!

[PumkinKing]

really looking forward to Version 2.

Mori stopped my marching foward now a bit, maybe its better so i can build an defence position and upgrade my economy . Still makes much fun to play your mod.(only the samurai armys are annoying from time to time )

Hey i want to play too huh

thats true would be a shame if you cant play your own mod and dont enjoy your own work

But maybe you will overthing your decision ending this project so early^^.

One think that comes into my mind, was the unitsize of the samurai are the not a bit close to the unit size of the Ashigaru Units? ( or is this size perfect for the game balance ) <---- thats just a thought that comes me after some playing.


My only wish would be to integrade the thing with the arrow damage(additional to the plans you allready have). But thats not a "MUST BE" ^^

[Fra70]

i will do some heavy playtesting saturday to see if something have to be tweaked ( game too hard for example )

regarding arrows i really dont know ...they should be more a "tactical" weapon than a killing weapon and i want to avoid the boring tactic of a big line of archers with behind a big line of spears ... so for now i think they will rest as they are and that will force people to be more creative on the battlefield.

the actual ratio of samurai is 75 vs 100 ashigaru and i think they can still roll over 2-3 units of medium-late ashigaru before losing

[PumkinKing]

regarding arrows i really dont know ...they should be more a "tactical" weapon than a killing weapon and i want to avoid the boring tactic of a big line of archers with behind a big line of spears ... so for now i think they will rest as they are and that will force people to be more creative on the battlefield.

I understand what you mean (Bow-spamming) only thing is, that i found that the arrows are really weak self when i try to use them as an "tactical" weapon they seem pretty useless. 100-200 Bow Ashigaru kill in a siege battle 2 - 5 Samurai. 200 Arrows that get shot with an really high speed and such a samurai only fall to the ground by getting hit by 3 arrows. This makes them self as auxilary unit pretty useless in my opinion (there are more units die when they fall from the wall )

The example is a bit exaggerated, but i hope you know what i mean. (Maybe it woul help to give the ashigaru a really really bad aim )
-> I understand your point in this. ( atleast the samurai units should go on their knees when they shoot, for the historical propriety)

the actual ratio of samurai is 75 vs 100 ashigaru and i think they can still roll over 2-3 units of medium-late ashigaru before losing

okey, was just a thought that comes over me when i saw how the samurai of the Mori crushed my beutifull ashigaru/samurai army

[Fra70]

remember FATIGUE that is now a big key to victory ..

if a unit of samurai try to climb a wall its true that they get only 5-6 deaths by arrows ( and i think that is pretty historical ..remember medieval knights that were looking like porcupines at the end of a battle ? ) ...so they climb in 70 ...so add another 4-5 kills by falls ....they dey slaughter the archers ( if the defender was so silly to not swap them with a melee unit ) ....so at the end we have around 55-57 very tired samurai and maybe they have to start again against a second level of walls of face some fresh samurai retainers ...but even if they will have to face 100 ashigaru in pikewall formation they will still win but they will be in very bad shape and so tired that they will become useless .

Regarding big AI samurai armies i will give it a big look in my playtesting ...if this happen too often i will reduce the bonus money for AI factions .

[PumkinKing]

So played the battle Shimazu vs Mori/ Chosokabe now. And it was again an really good battle (one awsome fight after another thats a big plus point for your mod )

The Chosokabe attacked with a rest army from they last attack and the Mori helped them with Samurai.
My army was really damaged before the fight so it was not easy, but makeable. At the end i only had 100 -200 men.

The rest of the party guests ^^

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hatamoto really saved my ass

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Battle result

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

if a unit of samurai try to climb a wall its true that they get only 5-6 deaths by arrows ( and i think that is pretty historical ..remember medieval knights that were looking like porcupines at the end of a battle ? ) ...so they climb in 70 ...so add another 4-5 kills by falls ....they dey slaughter the archers ( if the defender was so silly to not swap them with a melee unit ) ....so at the end we have around 55-57 very tired samurai and maybe they have to start again against a second level of walls of face some fresh samurai retainers ...but even if they will have to face 100 ashigaru in pikewall formation they will still win but they will be in very bad shape and so tired that they will become useless .

Mh your argumentation is really good. Maybe i set to much in the Bows before and have to see them more as a "helping hand".
The thing with the Fatigue sound pretty logical and i think your pretty right. ( Summed up i have to build more walls they have to climb )

if the defender was so silly to not swap them with a melee unit

Sometimes i let them there so they can shoot the persons wich are climbing up, they make a perfect target !


PS: I dont want to the how a european medieval knight trys to climb such a wall

[Fra70]

swapping a missile unit with a melee one ( when the enemy is almost at half climb ) is essential to win in sieges both in MP and in single player ( imo )

meanwhile ive started retouching all the special units of every clan ( 17 units in total ) so now are very unique both visually and with stats .

For example

Chosokabe's units were almost farmers ...not regular units ... so ive rappresented them as very skilled archers , with plenty of ammos but with low armor and a bit less melee skills

PS: I dont want to the how a european medieval knight trys to climb such a wall

PS ..they used ladders !!!

[PumkinKing]

swapping a missile unit with a melee one ( when the enemy is almost at half climb ) is essential to win in sieges both in MP and in single player ( imo )

yeah tried it in the last 2 battles and youre right, maybe i was taken to it because with Darthmod the bows were stronger and so you could make some critical damage to the enemy (wich makes the game maybe to easy)

PS ..they used ladders !!!

I know iam not an idot in history. Maybe i had not expressed clear. I know about the siege battles in european history. What i meant was some kind of heavy knight like the Gothic-knights and in a way like in shogun to were they climb the walls with their hands

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[ShinXari]

Salve Fra70...sono una comune conoscenza di Vennonetes sul forum TWOI.

Avendo da sempre un notevole interesse per la storia giapponese, ed il Giappone in genere (del resto altrimenti non avrei intrapreso e terminato una laurea a riguardo) sono molto interessato a vederla terminata.... le premesse mi paiono molto buone.

Seppur con una conoscenza del periodo e del contesto storico in questione sicuramente assai più limitata di quella dei "Rekishi Otaku" che girano su questo forum desidererei comunque palesare la mia disponibilità a prestare aiuto a livello "storico" e magari anche linguistico all'impresa.

Sorry for speaking in italian... i was offering my modest help regarding the development of the mod.

[VENNONETES]

Alé

[Fra70]

Ciao shinxari !!

Unfortunately as you know the historic implementation is quite difficult ...ive tried to make a realism injection into the Shogun 2 gameplay
To make an adequate historical implementation one should be able to follow , for example , the development of armors ,but i can only make a realistic refresh , i cant follow the transitions .I could do that more modern building do more modern units ( connectin blacksmiths as a prerequistite for newest units ) but that would require 3-4 versions of the same units ...its an immense work
My improvemente are then much more simple ..For example ive removed the hotoke-do from takeda units since they were disappeared earlier than the development of that armor ....Or for example ive removed the mogami do from the shimazu because i dont think they were arrived at the other side of japan .
Other social implementation would require a much more deep work ( hazbones is trying something like that ) and a much bigger staff ( but a big staff delay things alot ) ....even in this case ive tried to insert little drops of realism like the minor clans offering troops in their regions or haveing divided much more the attitude and characteristics of samurai and ashigaru units .
Btw feel free to say which points could be refined more ( even as language ) or on which ones we can focus for the 3rd version of the mod and we will see what i can do

[Fra70]

I know iam not an idot in history. Maybe i had not expressed clear. I know about the siege battles in european history. What i meant was some kind of heavy knight like the Gothic-knights and in a way like in shogun to were they climb the walls with their hands

ehehe i know i was joking ...still i think that the climbing thing was only relative to small walls ( no more that 3/4 mt high) with irregular rocks ...you cant climb a tall , well done wall if you are not spider man ...i think CA implemented that because was cool and its portrayed in some old paintings ...but still i think its totally unrealistic

[PumkinKing]

ehehe i know i was joking ...still i think that the climbing thing was only relative to small walls ( no more that 3/4 mt high) with irregular rocks ...you cant climb a tall , well done wall if you are not spider man ...i think CA implemented that because was cool and its portrayed in some old paintings ...but still i think its totally unrealistic

I i searched a bit about siege warfare in japan: Mostly the sieged castles got sieged till the enemy surrender, because of starvation.

The thing with the wall climbing is only partly right. They climbed some walls thats right, but right like you say these were not the highest walls, like they climb 10 m. walls sometimes in the game ^^.
In Japan they used ladders and robes to come on the top of the walls, too. They also dig tunnels to get under the walls (like in RTW).
In some case they tried to flood the forts respectively the area arround! ( Hideyoshi used this technique perfect )

Added to this it must be said that only a few castles were these "big ass" castles, but you allready counteracted this with the high cost i think.

Its sad that CA not integraded some of these siege weapons and instead all the warriors climb high walls in Ninja-style. Also it is sad that the AI everytime uses the walls and never tries to attack trough the gates.

My campaign status is that i Upgraded now my last fort on honshu and the Ouchi and Mori permantly try to take it away from me, at first they came with mixed armys, but now they always came with Samurai/Ronin armys. Maybe you will see this in your long-time-testing on saturday.

PS. A question i have is: How much do burning arrows affect on the Moral of a Unit?
Imagine there is a guy next to you and in next moment he is burning.^^

[Fra70]

yup i already modified the roning thing ....
also i increased resistance to AI invasion


final testing is underway ..some diplomacy things have to be sliglty modified but it seems that everything is working fine ( i will probably make the tokugawa neutral with both oda and imagawa and let the player or fate to decide in which direction they will go )...still there is a bug in the oda panel that recognize me as a imagawa vassal ..i will search for that ..but everything went fine afterward ...

Release of version 2 almost sure for tomorrow !

[Nokter]

Happy to hear, looking forward to it!

But now, a few things I've spotted during my 150 turn Tokugawa and as a simple gamer, without the backing of tons of historical data and could be considered as possible changes.

1. Gunpowder Unit range really gonna stay at 100? In my opinion it kills all the fun in using, already limited, matchlock units.
2. For some reason Late Asigaru don't benefit from any castle upgrades as encampments, or regional perks as Blacksmith.
3. Arrows are made from sticks.
4. Diplomacy is the best diplomacy I've encountered in a mod, but still some clans like to send a invasion army on the other side of Japan just for sake of braking a allience.

No pressure, just some thoughts i felt like sharing.