Why are pikes come so late?

[Roachbugg]

I don't claim to be an expert on military history but why do pikemen come so late? I know for a fact pikemen have been around in one form or another since ancient Greece. I ask because fighting as some nations will poor spear men *glares at Denmark* get toasted by people like France and in the middle east when i have to go on crusades. So is there good historical reason for it being so late or is it something that i wont feel silly if i change?

[Losthief]

I don't claim to be an expert on military history but why do pikemen come so late? I know for a fact pikemen have been around in one form or another since ancient Greece. I ask because fighting as some nations will poor spear men *glares at Denmark* get toasted by people like France and in the middle east when i have to go on crusades. So is there good historical reason for it being so late or is it something that i wont feel silly if i change?

You are correct in the sense that yes the macedons of Phillip and Alexander and such used them, as did some other ancient societies, but it like much was lost to middle ages during the Dark Ages, at least the use of them extensively in armies of the time period. Until the late late 1200s/early early 1300s if i recall correctly...i think the flemish used them first....but could of been someone before that. I forget when the date is that they become available but feel free to move it up if you'd like (you can just pretend someone looked it up in the ancient texts early then happened or something) its your game do what you like , if you find it too much, or too annoying just change it back. Theres a submod somewhere making all units available from the start.

Alternatively i really recommend looking at ichon's project in the submod sections for the late era start date (1390 i think) as I think you'd love that when its finished, something to keep and eye on for you.

[Ritterbruder44]

what lostthief said

[Øctavia Yávëtil Theron]

Like Losthief said Phillip II of Macedon and his son Alexander III, the Great use Pike's (Sarisa's) to great extent in ancient era and also Phyrrus of Epirus in his campaigns in Italy against Rome. But in the Dark Ages it was lost the only ones who use it to a greater extent where the Flemish and Scottish in the 1200's and 1300's. The pike emerge again at Europeans armies in the 1420's when Swiss and Landsknecht mercenaries solved the pike's earlier problems combining it with Zweihänder or Halberdiers to protect them from infantry flanking. After that it with the beginning of firearms they began to use the Pike and Shot Formations that dominated every European war from the 1500's to 1700's when almost all European armies fielded the Musket with Bayonet which make the Pike obsolete.

[napoleonic]

how could bayonet made pike obsolete? bayonete is way shorter and weaker; heck it surely weaker than good old spear, wasn't it the advancement of guns that made pike obsolete?

[Baltic Warrior]

The bayonet was a "good enough" of a solution to having a soldier with both a pike and gun combined, thats why it took over.

[Losthief]

how could bayonet made pike obsolete? bayonete is way shorter and weaker; heck it surely weaker than good old spear, wasn't it the advancement of guns that made pike obsolete?

it didn't make the obsolete, it rather gave another almost as effective option to replace them against Calvary while maintaining the ability to shoot a musket from long range.

long range + bayonet > just pike to most armies/men. It was a alternative that while weaker was effective enough that it was worth the switch for the added muskets advantage.

So yes, advancement in guns, but really it was just a change in tactics, looser formations, smaller units, more mobile armies, etc etc that made pikes usage wane, and then they died from use when hand to hand combat waned in favor of shooting from range all the time. In a simplistic description, exceptions did and probably do occur.

[Øctavia Yávëtil Theron]

how could bayonet made pike obsolete? bayonete is way shorter and weaker; heck it surely weaker than good old spear, wasn't it the advancement of guns that made pike obsolete?

Aye it was shorter but by the 1700's Muskets where already using the flintlock mechanism so a good professional soldier of the line could fire 2 to 3 shoots a minute. So having the bayonet combine with the capacity to fire much faster enable the soldier's to fire more shoots before close combat began and they could switch to the bayonet once close combat began instantly. And this also make cavalry charges less successful so having a pike was less common. Besides Flintlock Musket where design to be use as a pike in close combat combine with the bayonet and so they where made up to 5 feet (With Most Bayonets up to 22 inches in length).

Ohh and don't forget that battle in the 1700's onward where fight in Line Formation or Square Formation. So tactics also did change for as to make the Pike obsolete.

In a simplistic description, exceptions did and probably do occur.

Aye like the Battle of Racławice (1794) in the Kościuszko Uprising where 2,000 Peasant's Armed with Pikes and Scythes (The Troops where called Kosynierzy) manage to break a Russian Infantry of the Line and manage to capture several Russian cannons.