Question about armors

[Philozoraptor]

When is here http://www.pressdat.com/mtw2/RR_RC_Guide_2.html written that for example armor value for heavy chain mail is 6, is it armor value just for heavy chain mail or for heavy chain mail with padding/leather armor that was mostly written underneath it? Same question goes for all types of armor of course. I would like to know if I am supposed to add 2 armor to plate armor (13 armor) in case some unit was wearing leather(or whatever the material was) padding under the actual plate armor. Thanks in advance.

[Philozoraptor]

* worn underneath it instead of written underneath it

[Ichon]

The value represents full armor typically worn. So armor of chain value at 6 includes the leather armor and padding of 2 beneath it so the chain is basically adding +4 to that value.

The only question for me is how cavalry armor stacks- in RC currently it basically adds value of armor horse is wearing + armor man is wearing which can nearly 2x the armor value. Doesn't quite make sense to me. However changing it requires also changing cavalry vulnerability to missiles, heat, and probably a couple other things.

[Philozoraptor]

Is there leather value included in lamellar armor values? I wanted to make historically accurate scholarii (I thought they were tuned down in vanilla SS for balance reasons). So it seems I gave mine too much armor. Catapharact horse is 7 armor, heavy chain mail( including leather) is 6, and lamellar (including leather ?) is 7, elite status is + 1. In case there is leather included in lamellar value there is no need for extra padding value I suppose since they worn 1 layer of leather, heavy chain main, lamellar and leather on top of it? And last question, could scholarii/klivanophoroi wear heavy lamellar or late lamellar on top of H chain mail instead of just lamellar?

[Ichon]

It is probably complicated question as RC did deal with history to a point but in ERE example the cataphracts and heavy armor style disappeared or at least adopted more 'modern' elements with less lamellar for after 1300's ERE. Depending on your view of lamellar that is improvement or not maybe.

To be perfectly honest I think from pure armor point of view scholari are probably already a bit over armored by stat value. I mean layers definitely help but mail over leather and padding even in 2+ layers has limit of protection and also begins to hugely limit movement of the man beneath. Part of the difficulty is how damage is done- 2 layers of armor great decrease penetration by arrow and even 1 layer can greatly defend vs slashes. However while more armor means more protection against heavier blows and impalement it also slows reaction time and increase fatigue so in a close melee fight its not good to wear too heavy of armor. Biggest advancements in plate armor was increasing in flexibility and lowering weight more than improving protection from blows though that did increase a bit with better metallurgy.

It seems few studies done on skeletons of mass graves near ancient battles show most common wound appear to have been in joints and head where armor was least protective so wearing too much armor could actually make soldier more vulnerable as he lacks speed and flexible movement to protect his most vulnerable spots even in armor.

Some battle reports indicate that for a short period when cataphracts wore very heavy armor they were nearly useless when knocked off their horse. I don't believe completely useless but that reports mention how slow they were and how quickly fatigued it probably has some accuracy. So considering cataphracts armor changed through the eras you can create a range of values and RC attempt to reflect this with armor upgrades so you indeed can have cataphracts wearing different types of lamellar.

Cataphracts after meeting both Persian and Western cavalry who wore slightly less armor and seemed to have some advantages in mobility/fatigue disappeared from battlefields in traditional sense during 1300s latest. Heavy cavalry remained in ERE of course but adopted different style than the older triple layers.

[Philozoraptor]

I thought they disappeared mostly due to downfall of empire in 13th century (lack of money and anatolian horses).

[Ichon]

I thought they disappeared mostly due to downfall of empire in 13th century (lack of money and anatolian horses).

That could have been part of it though I don't think they had a lack of horses there was certainly a lack of money but all heavy cavalry are expensive, cataphracts might have been even extra expensive in the era they began as they were mostly the only heavy cavalry but by 13th century the difference in cost between cataphract and other heavy cavalry wasn't so extreme so the move to adopt different styles was probably driven mainly by Latin presence in ERE and increasing Turk adoption of different styles where cataphracts were less powerful as Turks had good counter units.

[Point Blank]

When is here http://www.pressdat.com/mtw2/RR_RC_Guide_2.html written that for example armor value for heavy chain mail is 6, is it armor value just for heavy chain mail or for heavy chain mail with padding/leather armor that was mostly written underneath it? Same question goes for all types of armor of course. I would like to know if I am supposed to add 2 armor to plate armor (13 armor) in case some unit was wearing leather(or whatever the material was) padding under the actual plate armor. Thanks in advance.

All armor in RC2.0 now adds in an underpadding layer with armor 1 and heat 1l and could also represent heavy robes, peasant-level quilted cloth etc.
Some later armors offer considerable protection, eg full plate 13 + jack 1 + improved metallurgy 2 + Elite unit armor quality 2 = total 18.

Very heavy units will now suffer rather more severe movement and fatigue penalties; this especially appies to cavalry (no more 'endless charge' syndrome).

[Point Blank]

Update on armors:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13031387