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Thread: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

  1. #101
    Hrobatos's Avatar Auxiliarius
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    He means he wont be looking what hair color is of his phalanx, hoplites or hastati. Except if his Nubian Archers have blond hair. Otherwise it doesnt really matter in total war.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    And these kind of subjects are usualy pulled out by white or germanic supremacists, its full of Stromfront and similar sites.
    I don't think it's fair to compare the current thread with Stormfront, since this thread hasn't devolved into some silly argument for racial superiority. If anything, the other editors and I have pulled up credible scholarly sources to present a reasonable theory that a significant proportion of the Mediterranean world was fair-haired. If leading members of Roman society like the first emperor are described by credible historians like Suetonius as having golden hair, that's something you should pause and think about at the least. That said, I have to agree that most people in the Greco-Roman world would have been dark-haired brunets, if only from the massive amount of Roman painted artwork I've taken into account with analytical observation. Of course CA has many other aspects of the game to focus on, arguably more important things, but this is a serious topic worthy of consideration. It would be unjust to paint our discussion as nothing but a bunch of racist tripe, so please don't. Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    English is a Germanic language...formed by a fusion of Old English...and Norse...If you want to talk about religion or science or law or medicine you must use Latinate words (from French or Latin) and a smattering of Greek...English is basically a skinny barely functional body of Germanic (bones, basic organs and muscles) with a huge overgrowth and brain of Latin and Greek words, more than trebling it in size...Sort of like a massive genius headcrab perched on a hillbilly.

  3. #103
    Der Phönix's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    That was referring to someone else who said Berbers were frequently albino before 1500 which I found a strange statement. Also there are different sorts of Berbers- well at least people who now call themselves Berber or not and genetically they do test differently as well. One of my best friends was in a very isolated Berber community in Morocco for 2 years and there is quite alot of interesting Berber folktales concerning origins of the populations locally.

    It is interesting the debate about color of ancient Egyptians. I've seen it only a few times before and looking around on the internet in just 2 days the vast majority of "information" is provided by some questionable affiliation websites. The only conclusive evidence I've seen is that after close testing Ramses II natural hair color was apparently some shade of red but even in Ramses II's own time that color was considered somewhat rare though not unknown.

    The mummies with different hair colors are almost all chemical reactions. If you ever see preserved 'nordic' blonde corpses dug from graves their hair is usually gray or red- it does not remain blonde for thousands of years. If you look at many photos of these mummies you can also see that gold color is spilled onto the scalp so to me it seems part of the embalming process. Many Egyptians and other peoples through history have died their hair. There are African tribes which it is common even in modern era to dye heir red and blonde. Also the fact that the purported identities of these 'blonde' mummies are shown in many other images as having black hair and dark skin. So both things can't be correct at the same time or the identities are wrong. Finally even if a handful of mummies eventually proven beyond doubt to have had blonde hair... what about the 99% of the rest which don't? Many of the 'blonde' images on tomb walls depict helmets and hats not necessarily hair though I wouldn't be surprised if some depicted dyed heir or even occasionally real blonde but that was likely imported genetics, not local.

    Egyptians were also known for having concubines and slave trade was everywhere in ancient era- is it so unlikely that some blonde concubines could have given birth to an Egyptian who eventually inherited throne? Not to mention invasions of the 'sea peoples' and other factors that mixed genes particularly in northern Egypt. The other factor is that many Libyans and N Africans are fairly light skinned and were depicted that way in ancient eras as well- does that make them 'white' or European? Even most Europeans are not blonde so what exactly does it mean to say Egyptians were white?

    Anyway- I mentioned it a couple times already but apparently need to post pictures to have anyone notice. https://www.google.com/search?q=mumm...ypNdCNrQGlr4Eo

    From the first century to a bit later but not unsurprising that most images resemble modern Egyptians even 2,000 years later. So I would be surprised if Egyptians 2,000 years before that were hugely different in appearance. There was probably a mix of races as any large cosmopolitan area with lots of trade contacts and mercenaries/merchants would have but majority of native people would remain similar gene pool. It takes mass extinction/migration and mass influx/migration to change gene pool significantly over time. Short period new genes can make changes- South Vietnamese cities compared to North Vietnamese cities 2 generations after hosting thousands of Europeans soldiers is interesting comparison, however in 100 years without continual infusion of genetics those south Vietnamese will be mostly diffused back into the much larger native gene pool. Also those areas of the world which have seen the most constant migrations- central Asia- have very mixed genetics, dark skin with light eyes, rare blonde or red hair but frequently skin tones are somewhere between Asian and European.

    Also golden halo or hair or crown have been frequently identified as aspects of the 'gods' even in ancient times and so images might borrow elements of such when used in public displays. Just like propaganda today with airbrushed and worked images. The mummy portraits are so interesting because not only the quality and preservation but that majority of images are from middle class to wealthy individuals and were meant for private family consumption and not public perception and probably are much more accurate for this reason.
    Thanks Ichon, that was an interesting post. The mummy portraits are from the Ptolemaic period and they are known as the Fayum mummy portraits . The majority of portryts exhitbit induviduals with dark haired complexions but some indeed have fair feautures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinarius View Post
    reconstructed colors of Caligula's marble head (original is exhibited in Copenhagen):



    I mean that's something CA should really change: in various Rome-themed movies and games you only see colorless statues and busts, while they should have been colored.
    That's a Danish reconstruction. A more moden reconstruction of Caligula has been done by the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts. The claim that "The polychromy of the statue (not visible to the naked eye) has been restored on the basis of surviving pigments on the bust in Copenhagen and the statue in Richmond."

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    While it is clearly inaccurate to depict ancient people based on today's situation, no one really knows how it was 2000 years ago. Therefore, instead of blaming CA with your conspiracy theories, let's accept that R2 is NOT a history simulator. No one is gonna learn history with R2, that's the job of serious books, magazines, documentaries. R2 is a game, a bloody normal game. Get over it
    "No one really knows" and "there is much to prove" are to different things though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrotatos View Post
    To be fair to the people crying racism, to be that interested in supposed ancient Egyptian blondes or blonde Greeks and Romans is somewhat suspicious in the first place.
    I'd say it is as suspicious as someone viciously defending a notion that no one around the Mediterranean and on the Steppe had anything else than dark complexions (even though this is not true even for today). All I'm asking you is to look at the historical evidence that proves the contrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    There is no. There are some folks with blond har/light eyes today too. But a rather small minority. There is nothing to prove that sh blondis would form major part of any of ancient civilizations, and to claim that they are upon few individuals in in very least not serious. Its one thing then historian says someone is blond, and completely another when he says Scythians are blonde. One includes single individual, the other entire nation.

    Also, dont you think its a bit weird how ancient writes often describe blond hair among Celts, Germans, Thracians, Scythians as if its something unusual... But they dont say all Persians have black hair, as if its something not needed to even mention. Certainly often blonde Greeks wouldnt speak of Celtic hair color it it wasnt different than their own.

    And these kind of subjects are usualy pulled out by white or germanic supremacists, its full of Stromfront and similar sites.
    Would it also be white or germanic supremacist to claim such things as some Gauls and Germanics had blonde hair? No?

    I've said several times on the last five pages that I don't think fair complexioned features ever represented the majority around the Mediterranean and I have no idea why you keep beating this dead horse. It's like you are trying to make things sound ridiculous. Entire nations are not supposed to be blonde. In my first post, I say that fair features are overrepresented among Gauls. Also, why do you take for granted that all Persians had black hair? That's utterly worng.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahakar View Post
    I have always assumed I had black hair but during a visit to Egypt people laughed at me and told me I was almost blonde -at least in their eyes.

    Therefore I would be extremly careful when reading about an author who describes someone´s haircolor as "fair". What he means is "not quite as dark as everyone else". So I am not at all convinced by the evidence in the OP.
    Have a look at Roman Mosaics (hoover over text for link) and look at how the Romans depicted fair hair. The majority of the Roman mosaics that shows up portray fair haired individuals and they do it in a way we both could agree on indeed are "fair features"

    A couple of examples:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Quote Originally Posted by Akrotatos View Post
    Because these things influence WAR. The color of a soldier's hair is irrelevant, unless you make black people blonde
    Well, is there any reason to portray everyone around the Meditrianan and on the steppe as dark haired if there is no evidence to support the notion that everyone in these regions were dark haired?
    Last edited by Der Phönix; January 08, 2013 at 03:27 PM.
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  4. #104
    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    If you've read the clone armies thread you'll see most people seem much happier keeping preconceptions and I doubt CA will make it their bit to challenge that. It would be nice to see more variety but besides the evidence issue there is simply the engine requirements of video game- I personally don't think it would be so hard to have 10% or so roughly in 'mixed' populations that existed around Mediterranean of different complexion but I'm not a designer so maybe there are reasons not to do that or it is difficult to control proportions that closely so some units even with 10-20% random could end by distribution closer to 50% sometimes. Or appear to change greatly from battle to battle.

  5. #105
    Der Phönix's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    If you've read the clone armies thread you'll see most people seem much happier keeping preconceptions and I doubt CA will make it their bit to challenge that. It would be nice to see more variety but besides the evidence issue there is simply the engine requirements of video game- I personally don't think it would be so hard to have 10% or so roughly in 'mixed' populations that existed around Mediterranean of different complexion but I'm not a designer so maybe there are reasons not to do that or it is difficult to control proportions that closely so some units even with 10-20% random could end by distribution closer to 50% sometimes. Or appear to change greatly from battle to battle.
    Mixed armies are one thing, but we also have leaders. If I recall correctly, most ROME 1 (EB, TR etc.) mods were much more balanced and historical as far as ancient ethnology goes.
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  6. #106
    Akrotatos's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    I'd say it is as suspicious as someone viciously defending a notion that no one around the Mediterranean and on the Steppe had anything else than dark complexions (even though this is not true even for today). All I'm asking you is to look at the historical evidence that proves the contrary.
    Not really since nobody in this thread has claimed that there were no light complexions, just that they were a minority and it doesn't matter or deserve a 5 page thread to have it in Rome 2.

    I am Greek and most of my family has blue eyes and light brown hair (not me dammit I just got the freaking hair and hazel eyes when my sister has a blue-gray colour that would certainly land me a lot of women ) so IF I was 'suspicious' I would lobby for blonder ancient Greeks to prove my connections. Instead I suspect some Slavic and perhaps Venetian streaks somewhere in the bloodline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    That's just the way the factions work. I'd argue, fundamentally, the only faction required in Rome 2 is the obvious one - Rome. They could've sold you a game where you can only play Rome 2, and while it might kind of suck, it would in no way be inappropriate - the game is, after all Rome 2

  7. #107
    Der Phönix's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrotatos View Post
    Not really since nobody in this thread has claimed that there were no light complexions, just that they were a minority and it doesn't matter or deserve a 5 page thread to have it in Rome 2.

    I am Greek and most of my family has blue eyes and light brown hair (not me dammit I just got the freaking hair and hazel eyes when my sister has a blue-gray colour that would certainly land me a lot of women ) so IF I was 'suspicious' I would lobby for blonder ancient Greeks to prove my connections. Instead I suspect some Slavic and perhaps Venetian streaks somewhere in the bloodline.
    Well, then you certainly have recessive genes for fair features in your DNA, that you might pass on yo your children. Instead of a Slav or Venetian origin, it might very well orginate from the Indo-European invasion of the Greek peninsula, probably from the North some thousand years before present. Or it might originate from the Dorians as most scholars agree upon they came from the North. Even the sea peoples, if the originated from the Norhern shores of the Black sea like some schoolars cliam, might have given origin to fair features in modern Greece
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    Thorn777's Avatar Tribunus Augusticlavii
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    I heard the northern atributes among Berbers was due to the Vandals, who held the area for almost 2 centuries, and came with quite a pack of people.

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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Cant we instead beg CA to make Rome II moddable so we can edit the skin and hair ourselfs?
    you honestly do think they're gonna spend man hours and resourses on an insignificant feature like this?

    But,i would want to point out the height of the romans at that time.From what i know,they're swords seem short to us now,because the average man was about 160cm and the sword corresponded with the height

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    Markas's Avatar Child of Nihil.
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinarius View Post
    reconstructed colors of Caligula's marble head (original is exhibited in Copenhagen):



    I mean that's something CA should really change: in various Rome-themed movies and games you only see colorless statues and busts, while they should have been colored.
    I do hope not. Some of the more chintzy elements of Roman decor we could well do without.
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    Der Phönix's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    I heard the northern atributes among Berbers was due to the Vandals, who held the area for almost 2 centuries, and came with quite a pack of people.
    There seem to be scientific consesus in regards to that the the fair complexions among Berbers stem from isolation during pre-ancient times rather than the Vandal intrusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glorious Nationalist View Post
    Cant we instead beg CA to make Rome II moddable so we can edit the skin and hair ourselfs?
    you honestly do think they're gonna spend man hours and resourses on an insignificant feature like this?

    But,i would want to point out the height of the romans at that time.From what i know,they're swords seem short to us now,because the average man was about 160cm and the sword corresponded with the height
    So what are they gonna make people look like? As I've noted earlier, they would save thousands of hours by using the same facial animations in Shogun as the ones thet used for Napoelon and Empire.

    The average height was very much shorther for all peoples in ancient times compared to what is today. Human height has for the most part increased the last 200 years.
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Werent red and blonde hair dyes and wigs particularly popular in ancient rome? It seems entirely plausible that a few of the fair haired mosaics, particularly the ones of rich and noble people, were product of these color enhancers.

    Not really since nobody in this thread has claimed that there were no light complexions, just that they were a minority and it doesn't matter or deserve a 5 page thread to have it in Rome 2.
    This seems to be the consensus.

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    nicolasete's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    I am deeply interested in anthropology, but i honestly don't see "Arians - Total War" happening soon.


    I'm wondering... if you say most of souther europe was had a light complexion... what's then the origin of the dark-haired brown-eyed "corruption" of Europe and north-Africa?

    Arabs? Iberians? (not meaning celtiberians here) Numidians? i honestly don't have a clue.


    In any given case... i don't really think looking that at mosaics is the most accurate way to do a ethnic study...

    I mean... what if researchers 2000 years from now found zillions of posters of naruto in the ruins of japan... that would not mean all the japanese were blonde.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dan113112 View Post
    They won't put in completely nude barbarians. Simply because they don't want a Mature rating from the ESRB.
    I find extremelly hilarious how (in some countries) depicting men slaughtering each other in a massive scale, or setting pigs on fire to scare and eventually kill elephants is perfectly fine for kids to watch... but looking at naked men would corrupt their morals...
    Last edited by nicolasete; January 09, 2013 at 12:12 AM.

  14. #114
    Keyser's Avatar Pili
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    @Fayum portraits.

    They indeed depicts egyptian from the ptolemaic and roman era, however the area was where many clerouchies of greek settlers/soldiers were installed with their family.
    Not a small numbers of those portraits (though certainly not all of them) may be (mixed) descendants of greeks (and later roman) veterans or simply greeks and romans.
    Anyway, lower egypt has always be more open to foreign settlements, lybian, canaanean, greeks and latter bedouins and arabs from the whole middle-east.
    While it's a possibility people of lower egypt have always be fairer in appearance than people from upper egypt, it's also more than probable that it's the area where the features of ancient egyptian are the less likely to have remained unchanged.
    I think that when looking at modern people to know how ancient egyptian looked like, we should look at rural people in southern modern egypt or in northern soudan.

    Also, while i generally too dislike the stereotypical view of all celts as blonde haired and all roman as dark haired and northern african as extremly dark skinned and always beardy. The truth is that reality even in our modern time is complicated.

    Brown hairs are ubiquitous in europe, black hairs are more common in the south and blonde in the north, but they can be found anywhere really.

    Another poster also remarked justly that in a dark haired population, someone with light brown hair will be described as fair haired.

    Same for north african. First of all the area is very mixed.
    The berbers are the original inhabitants as far as historical sources can be tracked back. However being "berber" like most human groups is more a culture and a language than a genetic trace. Tuareg are black berbers. Some of them are dark skinned (in Morroco or southern tunisia) most are olive skinned, others are fair skinned and haired (especially in algeria, the Kabyles) but they don't have only one look.
    It's not because many (not all by the way) kabyles are blondes and look like europeans that all berbers are that way or that ancient numidians looked that way too.

    North africa, like lower egypt has seen many foreign population settling in the area. Phoenician, romans (from the whole empire), arabs, vandals. Then latter european slaves taken by the barbary pirates. Algerian are often european looking too, or at least fairer than other maghrebi, it is thought it is because of the high proportion of european taken in captivity throughout the centuries.

    Actually, evidence of fair haired roman and greeks are just that. Evidences that there was people with fair hair among them. Not any indications of the actual look of the population as a whole.
    IMO most of the population was probably brown haired like in modern italy, france etc.
    Last edited by Keyser; January 09, 2013 at 04:27 AM.

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    Pinarius's Avatar Princeps Posterior
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Phönix View Post
    That's a Danish reconstruction. A more moden reconstruction of Caligula has been done by the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts. The claim that "The polychromy of the statue (not visible to the naked eye) has been restored on the basis of surviving pigments on the bust in Copenhagen and the statue in Richmond."

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Nice, there is also videos of an colored version of the famous Prima Porta statue of Augusts and a reconstruction of old Rome:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    I do hope not. Some of the more chintzy elements of Roman decor we could well do without.
    That's just your personal opinion. I don't think these two color reconstructions of Caligula look "chintzy".
    Last edited by Pinarius; January 09, 2013 at 05:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    I can't believe there's 6 pages of discussion about "swarthiness of the people". I guess this is more important than any game mechanics. This is so sad.

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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Thanks for your incredibly important contribution.

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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by badhaggis View Post
    Thanks for your incredibly important contribution.
    What do you want me to contribute on? Swarthiness? Oh there's been enough of that I think. Even without me.

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    nicolasete's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by SughdianWarrior View Post
    I can't believe there's 6 pages of discussion about "swarthiness of the people". I guess this is more important than any game mechanics. This is so sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by badhaggis View Post
    Thanks for your incredibly important contribution.
    I thought most people in this forum was actually interested in history and anthropology.

    Contributing is free, everyone is free to take contributions into account (or not to) and this one is a particularly interesting one.

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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by saxdude View Post
    Werent red and blonde hair dyes and wigs particularly popular in ancient rome? It seems entirely plausible that a few of the fair haired mosaics, particularly the ones of rich and noble people, were product of these color enhancers.
    That's plausible. Not to say that rich and noble people did not often have fair features and as such created the trend in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by nicolasete View Post
    I am deeply interested in anthropology, but i honestly don't see "Arians - Total War" happening soon.

    I'm wondering... if you say most of souther europe was had a light complexion... what's then the origin of the dark-haired brown-eyed "corruption" of Europe and north-Africa?

    Arabs? Iberians? (not meaning celtiberians here) Numidians? i honestly don't have a clue.
    I'm trying to advocate Reality:Total War.

    Europe was never corrupted by fair hair and blue eyes. It's more like the opposite. Fair features was introduced by invading populations from the East all over Europe. Most probably they originate from somwhere between the Black sea and the Pontic steppe (blue eyes source). For example, fair feautres most probably spread with the Indo-European/Kurgan invasions/migrations from ca. 4000 to 1000 BC. Before this point in time, all Europeans may have had dark complexions as far as eye- and hair color goes.

    The majority of the population in Southern Europe has never had light complexions (remember that the majoroty were slaves back then). Invading tribes seldom composed a demographic majority where they arrived; they were for the most part composed of a warrior elite, ruling over the populations they subjugated.

    Quote Originally Posted by nicolasete View Post
    In any given case... i don't really think looking that at mosaics is the most accurate way to do a ethnic study...
    That's why I have given tons of references to ancient literature. When I in my first post of the thread say that of the 18 Emperors from Augustus to Commodus (27 BC-AD 192): 9 had blonde or red hair; 5 had grey or white hair; 3 had no recorded hair color and just 1 (Hadrian), was referred to as dark-haired, it's because it's supported by literature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser View Post
    @Fayum portraits.

    They indeed depicts egyptian from the ptolemaic and roman era, however the area was where many clerouchies of greek settlers/soldiers were installed with their family.
    Not a small numbers of those portraits (though certainly not all of them) may be (mixed) descendants of greeks (and later roman) veterans or simply greeks and romans.
    Anyway, lower egypt has always be more open to foreign settlements, lybian, canaanean, greeks and latter bedouins and arabs from the whole middle-east.
    While it's a possibility people of lower egypt have always be fairer in appearance than people from upper egypt, it's also more than probable that it's the area where the features of ancient egyptian are the less likely to have remained unchanged.
    I think that when looking at modern people to know how ancient egyptian looked like, we should look at rural people in southern modern egypt or in northern soudan.

    Also, while i generally too dislike the stereotypical view of all celts as blonde haired and all roman as dark haired and northern african as extremly dark skinned and always beardy. The truth is that reality even in our modern time is complicated.

    Brown hairs are ubiquitous in europe, black hairs are more common in the south and blonde in the north, but they can be found anywhere really.

    Another poster also remarked justly that in a dark haired population, someone with light brown hair will be described as fair haired.

    Same for north african. First of all the area is very mixed.
    The berbers are the original inhabitants as far as historical sources can be tracked back. However being "berber" like most human groups is more a culture and a language than a genetic trace. Tuareg are black berbers. Some of them are dark skinned (in Morroco or southern tunisia) most are olive skinned, others are fair skinned and haired (especially in algeria, the Kabyles) but they don't have only one look.
    It's not because many (not all by the way) kabyles are blondes and look like europeans that all berbers are that way or that ancient numidians looked that way too.

    North africa, like lower egypt has seen many foreign population settling in the area. Phoenician, romans (from the whole empire), arabs, vandals. Then latter european slaves taken by the barbary pirates. Algerian are often european looking too, or at least fairer than other maghrebi, it is thought it is because of the high proportion of european taken in captivity throughout the centuries.

    Actually, evidence of fair haired roman and greeks are just that. Evidences that there was people with fair hair among them. Not any indications of the actual look of the population as a whole.
    IMO most of the population was probably brown haired like in modern italy, france etc.
    Ancient writers usually explain hair and eye color in relation to something else. They don't say he had "yellow" or "brown" hair. It's more like: "his hair had the color of gold", or: "his hair has the same color as the lions mane". This fact combined with the obvious colors on frescos and mosaics makes the cultural relativist argument somehow weaker.

    When it comes to the Berbers, there have been several DNA studies that proves the category to be genetically relevant. I've refered to a cuople of them in this post. However, the regions is indeed very mixed, although the Kyabyles and the Riffians show the strongest tendency towards fair features. Don't know much about the Algerians so I'll have to check that out

    I just wanted to point out that fair features were severely underrepresented in Rome 1. They simply don’t exist South of Gaul. I hope to have illustrated that fair features indeed existed outside of Gaul and in the Greek aristoi and among Roman Patricians were prominent. To not speak of the Thracians and Steppe peoples were they seem to have been dominant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinarius View Post
    Nice, there is also videos of an colored version of the famous Prima Porta statue of Augusts and a reconstruction of old Rome:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Awesome

    That Rome video should be really valuable to the developers
    Last edited by Der Phönix; January 09, 2013 at 07:19 PM.
    Assess - Adapt - Attack

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