Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

[Duncan III]

It's well attested that all successful civs were white skinned, with blonde hair and blue eyes. In the image of god like jebus tells us.

[Der Phönix]

Tracing back the distribution of hair, skin or eye colours of people 2000 years ago is like having a rubic and try to deduce back its color pattern 1000 turns ago, or in more simple term, it is impossible. There were so many migrations, population movements, deportations, assimilations, cross-breedings between different ethnic groups in the past 2000 years. It is true that by studying the pattern of mitochondria DNA, we can trace back the migration of some certain ethnic groups, such as the Jews after the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans, but it is considered the very edge of our current technology.

In other words, we have to rely on the often very brief account of ancient authors to have a glimpse on the appearances of people 2000 years ago. It is by no mean a scientific fact, we all know that ancient authors wrote based on their impressions rather than scientific research. And as Rome II is nothing but a casual game, I don't think developers should bother this this still hotly debated issue.

Well, I see your point, but no matter how hard it is to determine the physical characteristics of ancient populations the point is that it need to be done unless we want everyone to look exactly the same.

I doubt pheonicians were red headed. Sources say they are related to modern day lebenese.

Those sources are based on Haplogroup DNA only and thus they do not give the whole picture. Nevertheless, light features probably accounted for a small minority among the Charteganians, but chances are they existed, especially in the leadership. Hasdrubal "the Fair" should be a strong indication of the hair color for given general and the rest of the Chartagenian Barca family.

really kind of hate ethnography mainly because it brings back images of malcom x staining egyptian papyrus to make them look black. How will we even separate the truth from the lies?

I understand and I left Egypt out exactly for that reason.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

So, the idea is that before two and a half thousand years Greece was inhabited by blond-blue-eyed people. I struggle to believe that there was a huge ethnographic change which affected Greece so heavily. The Greeks lived in a warm and sunny area with Mediterranean climate, it's pretty normal for them to have dark characteristics, similar to those of the Spanish, Italians etc.

[Duncan III]

I actually have some sympayhy with this thread- it is not silly.

[Yayattasa]

So, the idea is that before two and a half thousand years Greece was inhabited by blond-blue-eyed people. I struggle to believe that there was a huge ethnographic change which affected Greece so heavily. The Greeks lived in a warm and sunny area with Mediterranean climate, it's pretty normal for them to have dark characteristics, similar to those of the Spanish, Italians etc.

I'm not defending the idea, but it could have happened: Vandals, Huns, Goths, etc...

[Hrobatos]

So because of Vandals and Goths Greeks became "darker". OMG!


I'm feeling someone here just cant get why first civilization started in Mesopotamia and not Scandinavia. Or anywhere else where blue eyed blonde people are mayoritiy.

[Der Phönix]

This thread is well sourced and it completely blew my mind. White complexion on numidians? are you sure! you're telling me that lower Egypt and Ethiopians were.. white?

Anyway than you for teaching me something new and altering my world view on history, was some very transformative stuff. and even if i wanna claim that i don't care about this stuff i cant because its fascinating as hell. You heard that CA get them right!

That's what history should do, blow your mind. I'm happy I could share this with you.

What I'm telling you is that Numidians were Berbers and that Berbers on average have lighter complexions than other contemporary inhabitants of Norhtern Africa. However, some Berbers have light features to the degree that they could pass as Northern Europeans and I'll illustrate that below.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Everything about race and ancient Egyptians is extremely controversial and not relevant to the game so I'll not discuss it here. That said, there is much indicating the answer to your question is yes.

There is fair number of pictures on walls of ancient Egypt and they clearly arent blonde paled blue eyed Swedes. And no one said that anyhow.

here is pciture showing races in Egypt



Jewish, Nubian, Lybian, Egyptian

Well, there are depictions of blonde Egyptians as well, and there are several finds of blonde Egyptian mummies (hair color not tested if authentic though). Anyways, let's not discuss ancient Egypt as it has little to do with the Roman era.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[saxdude]

Everything about race and ancient Egyptians is extremely controversial and not relevant to the game so I'll not discuss it here. That said, there is much indicating the answer to your question is yes.

are you sure! you're telling me that lower Egypt and Ethiopians were.. white?

You must be joking.
Egyptians are very clearly represented in ancient art, as their counterparts of the area, most of those depictions scream prosthetics and dye, hardly representacion of a "fair" colored people in egypt.
Which does have to do with the thread considering that Ptolemaic Egypt was a power during the time and made use of indigenous populations.

[badhaggis]

So because of Vandals and Goths Greeks became "darker". OMG!


I'm feeling someone here just cant get why first civilization started in Mesopotamia and not Scandinavia. Or anywhere else where blue eyed blonde people are mayoritiy.

What? Are you seriously accusing people of racism (?) because they are saying that there were differences in ethnicity over 2000 years ago?

[Der Phönix]

So, the idea is that before two and a half thousand years Greece was inhabited by blond-blue-eyed people. I struggle to believe that there was a huge ethnographic change which affected Greece so heavily. The Greeks lived in a warm and sunny area with Mediterranean climate, it's pretty normal for them to have dark characteristics, similar to those of the Spanish, Italians etc.

I don't understand. This very day Greece is inhabited by blond-blue-eyed people, but they are of course not the majoority.

A huge (but gradual) ethnographic change is not that unlikely bearing in mind that about 2/3 of the population in ancient Greece were slaves, often from outside of Greece. Also, since classical times, Greece has witnessed a large amount of invasions, mainly from the East, West and North.

[AzureNight]

Expect each Roman unit to have a token black guy, judging by the lifting of the 300/Spartacus artistic style by CA.

[saxdude]

I don't understand. This very day Greece is inhabited by blond-blue-eyed people, but they are of course not the majoority.

A huge (but gradual) ethnographic change is not that unlikely bearing in mind that about 2/3 of the population in ancient Greece were slaves, often from outside of Greece. Also, since classical times, Greece has witnessed a large amount of invasions, mainly from the East, West and North.

The genetic makeup of the greek people has remained largely the same throughout the majority of its history, the invasions didnt come with great swathes of colonists and these variances can be traced rather easily.
Not that these greeks are the same greeks as those from the time of Rome, but they are a fairly accurate representation of what the population of the time might have looked like.

[Der Phönix]

The genetic makeup of the greek people has remained largely the same throughout the majority of its history, the invasions didnt come with great swathes of colonists and these variances can be traced rather easily.

That may be true for the majority of Greeks. Anyways, a source for that? As already noted, studies on Y-DNA and M-DNA is not good enough to conclude anything about the "general genetic makeup".

[badhaggis]

The genetic makeup of the greek people has remained largely the same throughout the majority of its history, the invasions didnt come with great swathes of colonists and these variances can be traced rather easily.
Not that these greeks are the same greeks as those from the time of Rome, but they are a fairly accurate representation of what the population of the time might have looked like.

The Slavs did intermingle with the population, as did some Gothic tribes.

[saxdude]

That may be true for the majority of Greeks. Anyways, a source for that? As already noted, studies on Y-DNA and M-DNA is not good enough to conclude anything about the "general genetic makeup".

Im pretty sure there is, its around here, somewhere. That said it is based on mitochondrial and is not as entirely accurate.

The Slavs did intermingle with the population, as did some Gothic tribes.

Many did, thracians, turks, etc. but not enough to justify a complete ethnographical change that would make these people widely different to their modern counterparts.

We have visual depictions and Written sources for these things of which I consider the former being more reliable than the latter, since the latter is heavily subjected to the bias of the author and his status in the society. Im sure there was a number of blonde, blue eyed greeks and romans back in the day, but there is no evidence that points out that this was a majority thing.

[Der Phönix]

Greece also witnessed Arab and Bulgar (turkic) invasions. More importantly, Greece was under Ottoman rule for almost 400 years.

Im sure there was a number of blonde, blue eyed greeks and romans back in the day, but there is no evidence that points out that this was a majority thing.

Indeed. Probably never a majority. Still, very prominant in society in general.

[Duncan III]

We are all related at some level- separately, I don't think der Phoenix point should be dismissed as racism- it's not.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Wasn't Marius Caesar's relative? Not Sulla.
From multiple sources it says that Caesar's hair was dark and his eyes were a bluish brown tint.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

So, the idea is that before two and a half thousand years Greece was inhabited by blond-blue-eyed people. I struggle to believe that there was a huge ethnographic change which affected Greece so heavily. The Greeks lived in a warm and sunny area with Mediterranean climate, it's pretty normal for them to have dark characteristics, similar to those of the Spanish, Italians etc.

The temperature was much colder during the Roman era.

[lazerBAR]

No one mentions Iberians? pfft.