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Thread: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

  1. #1
    Der Phönix's Avatar Miles
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    Icon4 Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    This thread is about ancient ethnography. Some people seem to think the ethnographic makeup of Eurasia during antiquity was exactly the same as the stereotypical picture we see today - pale white and light eyed people originating from and living exclusively in Northern Europe, and darker skinned people living around the Mediterranean and in the Orient. As for ethnicity, anyone slightly interested in anthropology knows that much has changed. Most populations of the antiquity have been heavily altered or replaced. In general, since ancient times, the populations of Eurasia have become swarthier, that is with more dark complexions like black hair, darker skin, brown eyes etc. In Rome I, the armies and leaders of many factions generally appeared much too swarthy compared to how they looked historically. Heck, they even appeared swarthier than the corresponding populations are today. I'm not sure why exactly this was the case but it is definitively flawed.

    Hellenic factions

    Let's start out with the Hellenic factions. I never saw any Hellenic soldier or leader in Rome with other than quite dark complexions. If I recall correctly, none were fair haired or had other than dark colored eyes. Today, some 4% of the Greek population is blonde and some 17% have light eyes. During antiquity, the strain of light complexions was significant. For instance, Alexander the Great, Ptolemy II Philadelphus, Critias, Demetrius of Phalerum, King Lysimachus, King Pyrrhus and Alcibiades were all fair-haired individuals. Dionysius I, the ruler of Syracuse, had blond hair and freckles, whilst the Athenian playwright Euripides describes himself as a fair haired type with freckles. The ancient Greek lyric poet Pindar wrote that the hair of the Achaeans (Danaoi) was blonde. Ancient Greek sources describe the Spartans as blonde. The poet Bacchylides said that the women of Sparta were blonde, and Dicaearchus said much the same thing about the women of Thebes. In the work of Homer, Menelaus the king of the Spartans is, together with other Achaean leaders, portrayed as blond. Spartan poet Alcman describes his cousin Hegesichora as golden haired while the Spartan poetess Megalostrata as a ''blonde-haired maiden''. Menelaus, the legendary ruler of pre-Dorian Sparta is described as blonde throughout Homer's texts.

    Greek mosaics

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Ancient Greek mosaic, a deer hunt, detail from the mosaic floor

    The Celts

    The Celts are represented as merely red haired in Rome I. Celts are indeed described as pale white and with light eye and light hair color in Roman sources, for instance by Virgil and Ammianus. However, red hair is starkly overrepresented among the Celts in Rome I . Also, the Celts inhabited most of the Iberian Peninsula during antiquity. In addition, the Celtic migration to Anatolia in 279 BC left the peninsula with a predominantly Celtic population the following centuries. This of course influenced the physical appearance of the population in these regions.

    The Romans

    The element of blondeness and blue eyes in and around ancient Rome was significant. It is still significant. Some 25-35% of the contemporary population living in Rome is blue eyed while around one fourth is fair haired. Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Galba Marcus Porcius Cato, Julius Cæsar all had light hair according to ancient sources. Of the 18 Emperors from Augustus to Commodus (27 BC-AD 192): 9 had blonde or red hair; 5 had grey or white hair; 3 had no recorded hair color, and just 1 (Hadrian), was referred to as dark-haired. Of the 18 Emperors from Augustus to Commodus: 9 had blue or grey eyes; 2 had "wine-colored eyes" (whatever that may mean), and 7 had no recorded eye color.

    Later emperors such as Constantius II (337 - 361 AD) and Jovian (363 - 364 AD) were blue eyed and fair haired. Valentinian I (364 - 375 AD) was blue eyed and fair of feature and his brother, Valens (364 - 378 AD), was also fair, with a reddish complexion. Emperor Theodosius I (379 - 395 AD) was blonde haired. Emperor Theodosius II (408 - 450 AD) had according to ancient sources golden hair.

    The name of patrician families such as Ahenobarbus , Rufi, Flavi, and Fulvi means "fair hair" or “red hair”, while the family names such as Caesulla and Ravilia means light eyes. This also demonstrates the significance of light colored features in Rome.

    Roman mosaics

    Roman fresco

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Mosaics of girls in bikinis at the Villa Romana del Casale

    The Berbers

    The Numidians, along with the ancient Mauritanians, were Berber peoples. They were NOT Bedouins. The Berbers are different from most other peoples in North Africa because of their unique history and light complexions (aside from the nomadic pastoralist Tuareg Berbers). The percentage of fair hair and light eyes is significant among the Berbers, and their skin color is significantly whiter than that of other North African inhabitants. Google “Berber”, have a look at the images and you’ll see what I mean.

    The Eurasian steppe

    Blue eyes did not evolve in Sweden. It originates from around the Black Sea and the center of gravity for this characteristic has changes with history. During antiquity, the peoples living in the Eurasian steppe were mostly blue eyed and light haired. These traits were then dominant for all Indo-European peoples on the Eurasian steppe, such as the Parthians, Alans, Scythians and the Yuezhi. Scythians and Alans are described as light haired in Roman and Greek (Herodotus) sources. Modern genetic studies confirm that they were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired (link to this for those interested). Yuezhi along with other ancient inhabitants in the Tarim basin are described as having light complexions in Chinese sources. The same is confirmed by modern genetics and archeological evidence from for example the Tarim basin mummies and Altai mummies.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    "Tocharian donors", 6th century CE fresco from the Kizil Caves.

    Pannonian Basin

    The now extinct population of Thracians was fair-complexioned. Several Thracian graves or tombstones have the name Rufus inscribed on them, meaning "redhead" – a common name given to people with red hair. Ancient Greek artwork often depicts Thracians as redheads. Rhesus of Thrace, a mythological Thracian King, derived his name because of his red hair and is depicted on Greek pottery as having red hair and beard. Ancient Greek writers also described the Thracians as red haired. A fragment by the Greek poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired. The same light complexions are attributed to Dacians also in ancient sources.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    A fresco of a red-haired woman in the Ostrusha Mound in central Bulgaria.

    Carthage

    Carthaginians were Phoenicians. The name "Phoenicians" loosely translates as "red people." We know very little about the ethnic character of the Phoenicians, however, some scholars have argued that "red people" refers to the color of their hair. Nevertheless, what we do know is that the Carthaginian aristocracy was not native North Africans and this fact should be taken into account. Interestingly though, Hasdrubal the fair, Hannibal’s brother in law and son of Hamilcar Barca was obviously fair haired, demonstrating the strain of light complexions at least in the Carthaginian leadership.
    Last edited by Der Phönix; January 08, 2013 at 07:05 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Phönix View Post
    Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Galba Marcus Porcius Cato, Julius Cæsar all had light hair according to ancient sources.
    Care to share these sources of yours? Only thing I remember about Cæsars hair is from british biography - Caesar: Life of a Colossus - written by Adrian Goldsworthy. He claims that we have no source and thinks dark hair being likely.

    About others, I have no faintest idea...
    Last edited by TsarGrey; January 04, 2013 at 08:46 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Pretty sure I read a source that Ceasar had dark-brown/ dark colored hair

  4. #4
    Der Phönix's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by TsarGrey View Post
    Care to spare these sources? Only thing I remember about Cæsars hair is from british biography - Caesar: Life of a Colossus - written by Adrian Goldsworthy. He claims that we have no source and thinks dark hair being likely.

    About others, I have no faintest idea...
    Sure.

    Sulla

    According to Erik Hildinger, Sulla was blonde, blue eyed, and had a "wine-marked" white face covered with red marks.Plutarch, the ancient historian, notes that Sulla considered that "his golden head of hair gave him a singular appearance."

    -Erik Hildinger, Swords Against the Senate: The Rise of the Roman Army and the Fall of the Republic, Da Capo Press, 2003, p.99

    "And Sulla says that he himself was this man, for his golden head of hair gave him a singular appearance, and as for bravery, he was not ashamed to testify in his own behalf, after such great and noble deeds as he had performed."

    -Plutarch, Life of Sulla". 2008-5. Retrieved 2011-07-03.
    [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...s/Sulla*.html]

    Cato the Elder

    "Physically distinctive with red hair and gray eyes..."

    -Traver, G Andrew. From Polis to Empire: The Ancient World, C. 800 B.c. - A.d. 500. 2002.
    [http://books.google.no/books?id=JEvN...0hair&f=false]

    "As for his outward appearance, he had reddish hair, and keen grey eyes"

    -Plutarch, The life of Cato the Elder, p305 [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...o_Major*.html]

    Cæsar

    The hair color of Cæsar is more uncertain, however, the sources we have indicate his hair was fair. His relative, for instance Sulla and Augustus, had fair hair.

    "Caesar was tall, fair-haired, well built and of sound health. though he did suffer from the occasional epileptic fit."

    -[http://www.roman-empire.net/republic/caesar.html]

    "Colore candido" = fair complexion

    -Suetonius. The Life of Caesar (Caesar), 45
    [http://bcs.fltr.ucl.ac.be/suet/caes/45.htm]

    Quote Originally Posted by xjlxking View Post
    Pretty sure I read a source that Ceasar had dark-brown/ dark colored hair
    Hmm. Don't mind posting it if you find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles of Athens View Post
    This thread.. is not good.
    Please. If you have nothing to contribute just leave.
    Last edited by Der Phönix; January 05, 2013 at 12:00 AM.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Well if Der Phonix is right, then this information should be taken into account when designing the characters.

    I'm not an expert on classical history though, so I have no idea which sources are credible, which stories are correct, etc...
    In it for the rep.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Phönix View Post
    Sure.

    Sulla

    According to Erik Hildinger, Sulla was blonde, blue eyed, and had a "wine-marked" white face covered with red marks.Plutarch, the ancient historian, notes that Sulla considered that "his golden head of hair gave him a singular appearance."

    -Erik Hildinger, Swords Against the Senate: The Rise of the Roman Army and the Fall of the Republic, Da Capo Press, 2003, p.99

    "And Sulla says that he himself was this man, for his golden head of hair gave him a singular appearance, and as for bravery, he was not ashamed to testify in his own behalf, after such great and noble deeds as he had performed."

    -Plutarch, Life of Sulla". 2008-5. Retrieved 2011-07-03.
    [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...s/Sulla*.html]

    Cato the Elder

    "Physically distinctive with red hair and gray eyes..."

    -Traver, G Andrew. From Polis to Empire: The Ancient World, C. 800 B.c. - A.d. 500. 2002.
    [http://books.google.no/books?id=JEvN...0hair&f=false]

    "As for his outward appearance, he had reddish hair, and keen grey eyes"

    -Plutarch, The life of Cato the Elder, p305 [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...o_Major*.html]

    Cæsar

    The hair color of Cæsar is more uncertain, however, the sources we have indicate his hair was fair. His relative, for instance Sulla and Augustus, had fair hair.

    "Caesar was tall, fair-haired, well built and of sound health. though he did suffer from the occasional epileptic fit."

    -[http://www.roman-empire.net/republic/caesar.html]

    "Colore candido" = fair complexion

    -Suetonius. The Life of Caesar (Caesar), 45
    [http://www.progettovidio.it/dettagli...0I%20(Cesare)]



    Hmm. Don't mind posting it if you find it.



    Please. If you have nothing to contribute just leave.
    the Roman historian Suetonius wrote somewhere that it was brown/dark. I honestly do not feel like looking for it. However, if I stumble upon it I will

  7. #7

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Phönix View Post
    Sure.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The hair color of Cæsar is more uncertain, however, the sources we have indicate his hair was fair. His relative, for instance Sulla and Augustus, had fair hair.

    "Caesar was tall, fair-haired, well built and of sound health. though he did suffer from the occasional epileptic fit."

    -[http://www.roman-empire.net/republic/caesar.html]

    "Colore candido" = fair complexion

    -Suetonius. The Life of Caesar (Caesar), 45
    [http://www.progettovidio.it/dettagli...0I%20(Cesare)]
    Alright, thanks both for sharing and answer. I'm not sure of Suetonius' trustworthiness, he seems a bit vivid, but at least he lived closer to Caesar than any of us (and I'm avare he lived 69-122).

    So yeah, I sign with OP. There should be fair, pale features. . as long they're not dominant.
    Last edited by TsarGrey; January 04, 2013 at 11:07 PM.

  8. #8
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Suetonius, on the Life of Augustus, also describes the first Roman emperor as having slightly curly golden blond hair, but that his complexion was somewhere between dark and fair.

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...ustus*.html#79

    Although invasion, immigration, and forced movement of peoples throughout history obviously had an impact on all regions that such events took place, the population groups of every region in ancient times share a dominant genetic link to their modern inhabitants living in the same regions today. That doesn't mean certain phenotypes, such as hair color, in population groups cannot shift over time. For example, it's perfectly reasonable to believe that ancient Greeks on average had more blondes (a recessive trait, btw) than today, but that their DNA still closely matches the modern population of Greece.

    As for skin complexion, we should be careful about what ancient authors write, because opinions regarding skin tones can often clearly be the relative or subjective viewpoint of the author. I don't think the same can be said for hair color though. You're either a blond or you're not! Well, I'm a blondish brunet myself. Perhaps that's what Suetonius meant when he said that the hair of Augustus was "inclining to golden"?

  9. #9
    Der Phönix's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by TsarGrey View Post
    Alright, thanks both for sharing and answer. I'm not sure of Suetonius' trustworthiness, he seems a bit vivid, but at least he lived closer to Caesar than any of us (and I'm avare he lived 69-122).

    So yeah, I sign with OP. There should be fair, pale features. . as long they're not dominant.
    Fair features should be dominant in Celtic, Thracian, Germanic and Indo-Aryan (Parthia, Scythia) factions. As for the Hellenic factions, Rome and Carthage, having fair features just existing would big a big step towards greater realism. While not being dominant in general, fair features seem to have been dominant in some Roman families, most prominently the Julia, Claudia and Flavius.
    Assess - Adapt - Attack

  10. #10

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Interesting theories but difficult to prove entire populations based on ruling class or even strains of different genetics. Probably CA will make populations resemble current populations for both politically correct and marketing reasons.

    The evidence for 'lighter' complexions of steppe populations seems to be getting better but I'm not sure for Spain, Egypt, Anatolia, etc. Greece I did not think was much debate as many histories mention light hair though complexions in sun are not always light. So far the images in R2 previews show Romans as very light.

    Overall this might be the 2nd thread than the logistics one I think is getting too 'historical accuracy' points as well as lack of evidence.

    Hoerbrt I can't think of any gameplay reasons not to do it so probably purely for marking reasons CA won't make major changes from current poplulations here I'd guess.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    so I have no idea which sources are credible, which stories are correct

  12. #12

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    Interesting theories but difficult to prove entire populations based on ruling class or even strains of different genetics. Probably CA will make populations resemble current populations for both politically correct and marketing reasons.

    The evidence for 'lighter' complexions of steppe populations seems to be getting better but I'm not sure for Spain, Egypt, Anatolia, etc. Greece I did not think was much debate as many histories mention light hair though complexions in sun are not always light. So far the images in R2 previews show Romans as very light.

    Overall this might be the 2nd thread than the logistics one I think is getting too 'historical accuracy' points as well as lack of evidence.

    Hoerbrt I can't think of any gameplay reasons not to do it so probably purely for marking reasons CA won't make major changes from current poplulations here I'd guess.
    I'm inclined to agree. But good OP, and I for one would like to see as much historical accuracy in this game as possible, but I can't see CA pushing this.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    the most pointless post i have ever read. thank you op.

  14. #14
    |Sith|Galvanized Iron's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    This was a very good and important post, thanks for sharing this information with us OP

    I also think that it is highly ridiculous that the characters in previous RTW was modelled as Mediterrean stereotypes when half the people around the Mediterrean are not even that dark today, everyone wasn't and isn't Moorish Sicilians...

    Also it's noteworthy to point out that for example Alexander the Great is described as red haired and light skinned, his eyes are however described as brow but in a very light brown that was described as watery yellow. It's of course not impossible for gingers to occur in darker populations either, but it's still an interesting contrast to how people seem to imagine him.
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  15. #15
    Påsan's Avatar Hva i helvete?
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    A good thread, I'm not quite sure if you are correct, but you rise a point worthy of discussion and you do it well. You don't deserve some of the simple, mocking and condescending responses you have gotten at all. If you want an actual historical discussion over this I would like to recommend you to asking a mod to move the thread into the historical debate part of the site.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=7


    However I realize that you are appealing to CA, and that is better done here, so do as you wish.
    Last edited by Påsan; January 05, 2013 at 08:15 AM.

  16. #16
    Biarchus
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    I always heard that most Spartans had dark hair?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Phönix View Post
    Sure.

    Sulla

    According to Erik Hildinger, Sulla was blonde, blue eyed, and had a "wine-marked" white face covered with red marks.Plutarch, the ancient historian, notes that Sulla considered that "his golden head of hair gave him a singular appearance."

    -Erik Hildinger, Swords Against the Senate: The Rise of the Roman Army and the Fall of the Republic, Da Capo Press, 2003, p.99

    "And Sulla says that he himself was this man, for his golden head of hair gave him a singular appearance, and as for bravery, he was not ashamed to testify in his own behalf, after such great and noble deeds as he had performed."

    -Plutarch, Life of Sulla". 2008-5. Retrieved 2011-07-03.
    [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...s/Sulla*.html]

    Cato the Elder

    "Physically distinctive with red hair and gray eyes..."

    -Traver, G Andrew. From Polis to Empire: The Ancient World, C. 800 B.c. - A.d. 500. 2002.
    [http://books.google.no/books?id=JEvN...0hair&f=false]

    "As for his outward appearance, he had reddish hair, and keen grey eyes"

    -Plutarch, The life of Cato the Elder, p305 [http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...o_Major*.html]

    Cæsar

    The hair color of Cæsar is more uncertain, however, the sources we have indicate his hair was fair. His relative, for instance Sulla and Augustus, had fair hair.

    "Caesar was tall, fair-haired, well built and of sound health. though he did suffer from the occasional epileptic fit."

    -[http://www.roman-empire.net/republic/caesar.html]

    "Colore candido" = fair complexion

    -Suetonius. The Life of Caesar (Caesar), 45
    [http://bcs.fltr.ucl.ac.be/suet/caes/45.htm]



    Hmm. Don't mind posting it if you find it.



    Please. If you have nothing to contribute just leave.
    Caesar is not related to Augustus he adopted him and didn't he marry Sullas daughter

  18. #18

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by |Sith|Galvanized Iron View Post
    Also it's noteworthy to point out that for example Alexander the Great is described as red haired and light skinned, his eyes are however described as brow but in a very light brown that was described as watery yellow. It's of course not impossible for gingers to occur in darker populations either, but it's still an interesting contrast to how people seem to imagine him.
    I think some sources described Alexander as case of heterochromia, with one eye blue and the other one brown.

  19. #19
    The Roman Republic's Avatar Alea iacta est
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    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    i'm not sure why the OP made this thread as it weren't stated, if it was maybe to tell CA to pay more attention to the texturing of there units and generals?? if so it is way to much eye candy to be taken into account, I mean if CA were that bothered to attend the very small detail such as hair colour then it just will be a waste of time, I mean seriously in the midst of battle who is going to check to see if the hair colour of your general is Roman or if they have the right amount of leather straps on their sandals.

    If it was just to inform the public about historical accuracy, well whenever someone says something is historically inaccurate I have a tendency to think: 'You're historically inaccurate'. Historical accuracy is impossible and there's always enough left for criticism. Not in the least because we know little about the ancient times.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Don't make people more swarthy than they were historically

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander of Scotland View Post
    Caesar is not related to Augustus he adopted him and didn't he marry Sullas daughter
    Octavian was Caesar's nephew by blood and so they were related to 1/4 degree.

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