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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #1921
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I'd say rather the matter concerning the Wise is lacking porportion. Yes, it was possibly a mistake to not send support to Gondor once Minas Ithil had fallen - but it's as best a moral fault, because the Wise have no duty, no obligation, to act in any matter what so ever. We impose expectation on them which we should be careful to demand.
    To be a Wise is a matter of an honourary title based on the persons knowledge and not a official office with an assignment list, and the White Council is nothing but the Wise's personal chat group.

    Further we shall take into account that during the wars against Angmar Imladris and Lórien help out to push back Angmar but not to take it out, and first when Gondor arrives with what to it is a small force they together with Lindon and Imladris can crush Angmar. This is not the time of the Last Alliance, the Eldar forces are not that strong.
    Gondor in that end of the war fight next to the Elves, yet they once Minas Ithil is taken do not ask the Elves for help or support. The greater fault here is to a great degree theirs, as they should had requested aid - but we should not forget it should not, and supposedly they percived it should not, been needed. Gondor had yet many Dúnedain, of caliber shown in earlier discussed Boromir I, and weapons who could hurt Nazgűl (if we don't assume all weapons of the kind the Hobbits get from the mounds was lost in Gondor - but considering Boromir was feared by them least he probably carried one).

    Over time Gondor grew weaker, but so do the High Elves as many leave Middle-earth; that all don't leave but some remain to act in any manner at all is a greatful boon, not something to be demanded from them. It remain something that is moral and righteous to do, but as often seen they are weary of Middle-earth and do not care overly much for the mortals - yet the Wise care and help against Angmar and strike Dol Guldur anyhow (not forgetting teh threat either evil realm has against Elven lands), and that is a bonus, against a foe that even the Valar consider to be the problem for Men (HoME 10).

    And in honesty, what would been the result if Glorfindel rode down with some trust blokes and stormed Minas Ithil?
    The Nazgűl would flee and as soon the Noldor left they would come back with forces as if nothing happened.
    If Noldor set up a base there perhaps Nazgűl would stayed away, but not for sure, with an army decent enough they would come back and kill the Noldor as well as Gondorians, since the simplest Orc can kill a High-Elf just as well as a Dúnedain.
    At best the Nazgűl would set up a new base somewhere else, though where they could prove a greater threat, since once they had taken Mians Ithil they more or less stayed in there and almost never came out to cause problems; with Gondorians as neighboors who obviously had ability to hold them at bay the times they do come out.
    To let them have Morgul is an unsatisfing solution indeed, but considering the limited resources avilable, perhaps non the less a wise one.

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  2. #1922
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    How so Feanoro?

    Who could have done anything?

    Elrond? Arthedain had just fallen, there was some salvaging to do there.

    Galadriel? Hmmm... there was this thing driving the Dorfs out of Moria and by the mere fear it spread, was emptying Lorien.

    Olorin, Curunir and ... I forgot Radagast's real name- if I knew it? Read again the tasks of the Istari.

    Yes, Glorfindel and a small task force could have made a difference, and yes the loss of Minas Ithil was significant. But at the time there was much else to attend to, and it is likely that only too late did it dawn on the Wise what had actually taken Minas Ithil. We do not know, but we do know there was very little communication. We are after all talking Dark Age or Medieval equivalent here. They could not talk to each other on FB and check Eärnil's status updates- so to speak.
    They could do something more than it ignore for one. Even after it fell (And it took quite some time) the situation could be helped. If they could drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur, they could have helped Gondor oust the Witch-King.

    Also, I think Radagast's name was Aiwendil.
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  3. #1923
    Macilrille's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Ngugi basically answers your quibble with the Wise above. I will not repeat him, merely point out that M-E is not earth now, and that the Wise or the few remaining Eldar are not the US or USSR in The Cold War, where every move was blocked by the opponent (or attempted blocked) and which cost enormous resources and lives. Neither of which a commodity the Eldar had many of.
    Last edited by Macilrille; October 21, 2013 at 04:14 AM.

  4. #1924
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    Ngugi basically answers your quibble with the Wise above. I will not repeat him, merely point out that M-E is not earth now, and that the Wise or the few remaining Eldar are not the US or USSR in The Cold War, where every move was blocked by the opponent (or attempted blocked) and which cost enormous resources and lives. Neither of which a commodity the Eldar had many of.
    I'm mostly arguing from a moral standpoint. Morally, the Wise would be obligated to he help Gondor. Gondor amassed enormous resources after some nasty wars to save them from Angmar. From a practical standpoint it makes sense though. But morally, the Wise seem like ungrateful bastards.
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  5. #1925
    Macilrille's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Moral? How are the people of the mighty and strong realm of Gondor more deserving of aid than the other people that are in peril? In fact, if any realm could manage with no assistance, it is Gondor. And they did, Gondor was the only realm of men to endure all through the age and into the next.

    And how to aid them? Gondor's armed force is larger and stronger than any other amongst The Free Peoples.

  6. #1926
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Because Gondor saved them. And they turned their back on them. Gondor in the Third Age had a very good reason to be estranged, it seems.
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  7. #1927
    Macilrille's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Then tell me; who should The Wise have abandoned to help Gondor? Gondor that was able to help itself.

    It is a bit as if us Danes claimed that our contribution in Afghanistan made a huge difference to American efforts... And abandoned someone else to make it for the moral reason that AMerica saved us in WWII. Yea, the huge Danish contingent helps the weak Americans so immensely... can you see it?

    There were other tasks equally important for the Wise. If they had abandoned those to help Gondor for "moral reasons" and those others had perished; what kind of moral would that be?

    And... you still have not specified how exactly The Wise could help Gondor...

  8. #1928
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    Then tell me; who should The Wise have abandoned to help Gondor? Gondor that was able to help itself.

    It is a bit as if us Danes claimed that our contribution in Afghanistan made a huge difference to American efforts... And abandoned someone else to make it for the moral reason that AMerica saved us in WWII. Yea, the huge Danish contingent helps the weak Americans so immensely... can you see it?

    There were other tasks equally important for the Wise. If they had abandoned those to help Gondor for "moral reasons" and those others had perished; what kind of moral would that be?

    And... you still have not specified how exactly The Wise could help Gondor...
    And who would the Wise be abandoning? The Dwarves? They never helped them. The Northmen? They never helped them either. The Dunedain of the North? Sending someone to Gondor for an advising role or in extreme circumstances a small contingent surely wouldn't disturb the settling of affairs there so much.
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  9. #1929
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Sorry for intervene in your debate gentlemen but

    YES!



    I have found the greatest Tolkien lore site, one which is exactly in my taste and what I (and you weither you know it or not) have been looking for
    http://www.henneth-annun.net/resources/kbindex.cfm
    Henneth Annun present book quotes rather than summaries and descriptions, which is excellent for anyone who seek proper facts on characters, events, things etc; as any site it's not complete, especially when it comes to pre-Third Age matters and HoME material, yet it ought to prove an invaluable resource for us all


    Make me think we should make a list of good lore sites in the OP, to direct to for our fellows.
    Beside Henneth Annun I am thinking Encyclopedia Arda, Wikipedia, Tolkien Meta FAQ and, with some reserved notes, Tolkien Gateway.
    Any more suggestions?
    (Anyone suggesting LotR Wiki will get the boot )

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  10. #1930
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Lotr.Wiki. The greatest online Tolkien resource.
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  11. #1931
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II


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  12. #1932
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    On a more serious note, Ardalambion is a pretty good source for Tolkien's languages.
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  13. #1933
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    On a more serious note, Ardalambion is a pretty good source for Tolkien's languages.
    Good call

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  14. #1934
    Macilrille's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    And who would the Wise be abandoning? The Dwarves? They never helped them. The Northmen? They never helped them either. The Dunedain of the North? Sending someone to Gondor for an advising role or in extreme circumstances a small contingent surely wouldn't disturb the settling of affairs there so much.

    Let us see...

    Galadriel was just settling in Lorien after its abandonment by Amroth, with "Durin's Bane" causing an exodous.

    Elrond was in Imladris harbouring the Dúnedain of the North and likely trying with them to pick up the pieces.

    Gandalf, unknown, but likely with Elrond- him having most of his focus in the North, giving it speciel attention (hinted in UT to be out of some intuitive foreknowledge). But could be helping Dwarves.

    Saruman and Radagast, unknown.

    But the thing is; Gondor had the strongest army of all the Free Peoples, the strongest fleet, the strongest economy, the best infrastructure, anything. And was led by a somewhat arrogant King if you remember; would he even take advice? Hard to say, but he might not. Meanwhile the North and Durin's House were in disarray, Lorien was demoralised and depopulating and the Eotheod were settling new lands and licking their wounds from the Wainriders.

    You also forget that the Istari was not sent for direct confrontation with evil, and- more importantly- that it would be almost a thousand years before they learned who was behind it all.

  15. #1935
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    But it wouldn't be confrontation. Advising the King of Gondor isn't confrontation.
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  16. #1936
    Macilrille's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    But what would they advice them on? And why would the most powerful ruler of Free Peoples need advice? Especially when other realms were in disarray? And would he heed it?

    In the North or one of the other crisis areas, the Wise could make a difference. Could they in Gondor? How?

    What you are advocating is a bit like saying that for the moral reason that the US has supported the Red Cross, they should drop their effort in Syria and instead go and help the poor of America.

  17. #1937

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post

    I have found the greatest Tolkien lore site, one which is exactly in my taste and what I (and you weither you know it or not) have been looking for
    http://www.henneth-annun.net/resources/kbindex.cfm

    I found it a little difficult to navigate, but when I did my spot check of things I usually find wrong information given about in these sites I did not notice errors. Though I did by chance click on Ecthelion (of Gondolin) and it says he is "probably Sindarin". So I may have to look into the sites accuracy more deeply.



    Make me think we should make a list of good lore sites in the OP, to direct to for our fellows.
    Beside Henneth Annun I am thinking Encyclopedia Arda, Wikipedia, Tolkien Meta FAQ and, with some reserved notes, Tolkien Gateway.
    I personally would put reserved marks on Encylopedia of Arda as well, they make the typical mistakes. For Wikipedia, if the entries were done by Conrad or Steuard I would put some trust in them.
    Meta FAQ (you talking about Loos's yes?) is well done if dated.

  18. #1938
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post




    this is priceless, going to be my new wallpaper

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  19. #1939
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @ Infidel144
    Yeah, that was a strange error, since 'The Fall of Gondolin' clearly state he's a Noldor and I've found no entries questining or changing that in HoME.
    Registred now and will see how I can have it fixed ^^
    The general advantage of the site, as far as I've seen so far, is that most entries do not care much much for summaries and descriptions, but most info are direct quotes; why I was delighted.

    EDIT: EA is already given a note (though lack of HoME answers on certain matters, which I assume you primarily have in mind, may be argued weither a fault or not) and Wikipedia people should be suspicious about to start with (if not the problem is elsewhere; in the case of Tolkien it tend to be rather suprisingly reliable than the other way around however).
    A general note that cross-checking is the way of a proper schoolar who want be sure about provided facts at any site is added

    @ Flinn
    It's delightful ^^
    Last edited by Ngugi; October 23, 2013 at 11:07 AM.

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  20. #1940
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Why couldn't Gondor and other 'good' factions worship Sauron to stop the stupid war? They would lose nothing and everyone would be happy afterwards since all would be converted. It's the ultimate peace!

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