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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #161
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    To a new Bombadil debate?

    Well to make a complete circle then, and go back to from where we started the matter, was weither Firebeards and Broadbeams got Rings, which should point out they had Kings after their kingdom fell, which in itself I deem quite unlikley since the majorities of their populations lived under the king of Durin's line?
    Could they if no kings got Rings anyway? Further concern in what parts of the in-world and IRL lore should be given graver weight and not.



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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    To a new Bombadil debate?

    Well to make a complete circle then, and go back to from where we started the matter, was weither Firebeards and Broadbeams got Rings, which should point out they had Kings after their kingdom fell, which in itself I deem quite unlikley since the majorities of their populations lived under the king of Durin's line?
    Could they if no kings got Rings anyway? Further concern in what parts of the in-world and IRL lore should be given graver weight and not.
    Yes.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I get the feeling that the two houses were near fatally weakened when their kingdoms fell and Beleriand was broken. Or else why did they not form another kingdom? Analogous to this would be the fall of Drarrowdelf, the dwarves from there formed not one but over time they created three kingdoms (or Lordships anyway). I don't see how they would have not remained separate unless they were so weakened that they couldn't support themselves.

    Perhaps there were smaller Lordships or Kingdoms of them which were destroyed. Scatha comes to mind, i could be wrong but i don't think the actual house of dwarves is mentioned who claim ownership of the hoard. I know Scatha isn't a fire wyrm and thus couldn't consume the ring but i get the feeling that this situation must have occurred elsewhere.
    Last edited by smoesville; January 08, 2013 at 07:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Point for asking is that I wonder for the sake of DCI: LA, as I intend to add leats one general appointed representing these two Houses; is it logical that these get each a Ring for their House?

    Because if so they should have Kings, according to some LotR quotes (7 Rings to 7 Kings with 7 Hordes), and I'm due to other sources and lack of sources on post-FA kings (by which I mean kingdoms, or better put monarchies, exist, since a realm is not needed if there's a people) for these two Houses very sceptical to that.
    Other sources just referes to Dwarven lords or Dwarves (Silmarillion, the Appendicies and UT) gaining Rings, and if so it's perfectly proper.

    Of course it may be considered a trivial question, there's artistic freedom, but the matter itself is interesting to me.
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 08, 2013 at 08:03 AM.



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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Well I think this is because Tolkien later changed story, but not all of elements, so story of 7 Rings for 7 Dwarf-kings may come from very early period, before he decided that Belegost and Nogrod were destroyed with Beleriand, and before these dwarves left for Khazad-dum. I highly doubt there would be any other king in Khazad-dum other then the one of Durin line.

    Or the other option would be that some of these dwarves made new settlements, yet I am unaware of such, since as far as I can recall it is said they left for Khazad-dum, not made new cities, but it is also a posibility.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I wouldn't give them the rings, by that time i would assume that they were lost or consumed by then. Also though there were seven kingdoms (not at that time) and seven rings that doesn't mean that each kingdom got a ring especially since two of them were in ruins. Perhaps the eastern dwarves were given more because they were closer aligned to the men under Sauron's dominion.

    So imo don't give them the rings. Another thing that i would like to suggest is perhaps use the three houses as bloodlines like they would in EB ie. the ruling family is of Durins house (the name escapes me atm, i blame not sleeping all night because of a chest infection, seriously at this stage i've been awake for 23 hours and i'm in work) while some generals are of the other houses. Each house gets a certain chance for a set of traits (a set for each) so any general that marries into the ruling family has a percentage chance (perhaps weighted in favour of the greybeards (did i get it right?) to be from one of the three houses. Just a thought but it would be a nice bit of flavour.

    Also you could reduce the authority of those that are not directly of Durin's line and house.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I Have a Question that Has Always Bother Me. The Nazgl the Most powerful of them is the Witch-King of Angmar we all know that but was he really "Witch (Wizard)" and did all the Nazgl posses those powers to a lesser extent ? I Know that they have abilities like the Black Breath, Extreme Fear to Mortals (Especial Men) & The Morgul Blade's among others. But did they have magic.

    "The Nazgl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death."
    ― The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
    "They have no great physical power against the fearless," he wrote, "but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness"
    ― The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
    According to this they have some kind of magic since they could bring forth the "Darkness" and Fear everywhere they went and it was more powerful in the Dark. As for the Witch-King he appear to know some kind of Necromancy since he could summon barrow-wights. Where the others like him, I mean Khaml was second in command so he must have a power relative close to the Witch-King's to be his second in command.

    The Witch-king sent barrow-wights to inhabit the barrows in Tyrn Gorthad. - The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I assume these "tricks" are coming from Sauron. He was called "the Necromancer" for a reason. These "magic tricks" fit Sauron's personality as well; Obedience through fear and domination by power.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Well magic is a very difficult topic in the Tolkien universe, as magic is often associated with machines and that of the Enemy. I've always interpreted it as the nazgul lacking actual magical powers instead using fear and trickery to achieve it.

    Now I don't quite know how the Witch King managed what he did with Agmar and Barrow Wights, but I doubt that any of the nazgul save him had any sort of magical powers to summon the dead or other nonsense like that.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by smoesville View Post
    So imo don't give them the rings. Another thing that i would like to suggest is perhaps use the three houses as bloodlines like they would in EB ie. the ruling family is of Durins house (the name escapes me atm, i blame not sleeping all night because of a chest infection, seriously at this stage i've been awake for 23 hours and i'm in work) while some generals are of the other houses. Each house gets a certain chance for a set of traits (a set for each) so any general that marries into the ruling family has a percentage chance (perhaps weighted in favour of the greybeards (did i get it right?) to be from one of the three houses. Just a thought but it would be a nice bit of flavour.
    The three houses were the Longbeards (Durins house), The Broadbeams (who built Belegost) and the Firebeards (who built Nogrod).

    Also I wouldn't say that the eastern dwarves were ever closely aligned with the evil men, whilst a small few fought for Sauron in the war of the last alliance, it was probably through bribery or the promise of gold, dwarves couldn't be corrupted into evil creatures by sauron, but he could exploit their greediness.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lortano View Post
    Well magic is a very difficult topic in the Tolkien universe, as magic is often associated with machines and that of the Enemy. I've always interpreted it as the nazgul lacking actual magical powers instead using fear and trickery to achieve it.

    Now I don't quite know how the Witch King managed what he did with Agmar and Barrow Wights, but I doubt that any of the nazgul save him had any sort of magical powers to summon the dead or other nonsense like that.
    Barrow-Wights were not (un)dead Humans. Remember they go somewhere special and no-one can summon them back.

    They are evil spirits sent from Angmar to inhabit the dead bones of the Kings buried in Tyrn Gothad.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I don't think he summoned the barrow-wights, it just said he sent them, as if they were any other servant of Mordor like an orc or troll. As to the power of the nzgul, i think that the first quote is meant in a more metaphorical way and that their power was to induce fear which grew when in the darkness.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    Barrow-Wights were not (un)dead Humans. Remember they go somewhere special and no-one can summon them back.

    They are evil spirits sent from Angmar to inhabit the dead bones of the Kings buried in Tyrn Gothad.
    There are plenty of evil or lost spirits loose in ME, Dead Elves who have refused to go to the halls of Mandos if I remember right are nasty customers, though I am unsure weather they would answer too the witch king or too Sauron.

    I don't know for sure if read I this or made the assumption that a large host of greater and lesser maia followed Morgoth into Arda, I think a 1/3 but that could be scripture horning in or an assumption that stuck in my head without backing. Whatever the case these spirits could have had their forms destroyed in either the wars against the Valar or the Noldor, and with Morgoth gone are unable too take shape again and are much weakened. He mentioned something like this concerning Boldogs.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @ smoesville
    Already at the end of the of the Third Age? Some perhaps, although I do not think all but Durin's would be lost at this time; however I follow your line of arguments, and will take it into my considerations

    The trait idea is interesting, will look into it


    @ 1st V'

    I deem the Witch-king to been a sorcerer before he became a Nazgl. I am quite sure there is a quote to be found calling Wk for Sorcerer or even Sorcerer-king before he came to Angmar, which was the place where he earned the name Witch-king - and hardly just by mere chance.
    Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old.
    - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

    Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.
    Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.

    - RotK; The Siege of Gondor
    And there's difference between the nine Nazgl, so if one (or more) is magician in difference to others, that's nothing odd. The WK was undoubtly most powerful as known, so it ought to be no more strange with him as a sorcerer in his own right than it is they were different in life when they became Ringwraiths, I presume;
    The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others
    - Letter 210

    the Black Captain himself [was the most able] to perceive the presence of the Ring.
    - UT; The Hunt for the Ring

    All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-king, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge.
    - UT; The Hunt for the Ring ii

    but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.
    - FotR; Flight to the Ford
    Not saying Sauron couldn't enhance his Nazgls ability at need:
    ...(In RotK), put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.
    - Letter 210
    EDIT: On Barrow-wigths
    It was at this time [during the Great Plague 0f 1636] that an end came of the Dnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.
    - Appendix A

    The Witch-king... had known something of... the Tyrn Gorthad of Cardolan, now the Barrow-downs, whose evil wights had been sent there by himself.
    - UT
    Either they are maiar, or possibly weaker forms of themselves (wraiths) trough Morgul blade magic;
    'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have became a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring....'
    - FotR; Many Meetings
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 08, 2013 at 10:53 AM.



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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Gandalf says the WK was a mighty sorcerer either before his enslavement or in Angmar, I cannot recall.

    Lots of spirits followed Morgoth, I cannot recall whether they lost form at his capture. I believe not, Balrogs and Boldogs did not.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Sorcery is interesting in the fact it is not just machines, there is a source of great demonic power loose in ME. The essence of Morgoth loose in ME, could possibly be controlled too a small degree, The choice of Sauron to fight Elendil and Gil-Galad on the slopes of Mt Doom, I think points to this, because frankly before that duel he showed no great martial skill or strength. MT Doom is a place I think the corruption of Morgoth is either concentrated bubbling too the surface. The essence of Morgoth is nothing to sneeze at, In his beginnings he defeated all of the Valar, but diminished over time through putting forth his power into Arda and his creations. Becoming so weak in the end that he was stuck in his dark form and could be wounded by an Elven King. The Original Morgoth would have demolished Fingolfin easier than breathing.

    I am unsure about this though. I do know the use of sorcery seems to be entirely corruptive, rather than ones own native power.

    @Macilrille

    I would agree they did not lose form at his capture, they are in full incarnate form spirit and body. If the body was slain however without the aid of Morgoth I do not think they could actually take shape again or if they did so the form would be much weaker. They would I think die like Saruman died. I would also guess this is why the Balrog is not too eager too come out of his hole.

    "The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) orcs; but when practicing when embodied procreation they would become more and more earthbound, unable too return too spirit state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing) and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence , infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and moreto make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead orc-state be a poltergeist?).
    PG 410 Morgoth's Ring.
    Last edited by muller227; January 08, 2013 at 11:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    but what means "They have no great physical power against the fearless" in this context?

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by mondpeiler View Post
    but what means "They have no great physical power against the fearless" in this context?
    Their power is in terror or in the case of the Witch King sorcery as well. They remain but faded men though, the rings do not give them super human physical capabilities.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Either they are maiar, or possibly weaker forms of themselves (wraiths) trough Morgul blade magic;
    Or just captured and tortured spirits or more likely still willing servants given a new host and thus twisting their soul to real and permanent evil... I see no reason to think Morgul blades are the the only means.

    Consider we know from the HoME JRRT allowed that an elf spirit/soul could refuse Mandos and seek to trick a mortal into taking it body. S certainly seems to a have perfected in the First Age. So while some some souls might be twisted and broken what is to say some were not willing? Morgoth argued the void was absolute and Eru a lie. So his trusted mortal servants would likely perhaps jump at the chance of Necromancy avoid death and oblivion as Morgoth argued...
    Last edited by conon394; January 08, 2013 at 12:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @conon'
    Good addition, didn't thought of that



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