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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #121
    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Tolkien rewrote or interpreted a version of the story of Sigurd, it has been published by Christopher not long ago.

    Edit, and as I see it Gurthang is probably the single (well triple, for there was its twin) most powerful weapon made by Men, Elves or Dwarves. In the hands of a Man like Turin, it was outright scary.

    But...

    Its owner's malice was in it, and made it more deadly- to anyone; including its wielder...
    Last edited by Macilrille; January 06, 2013 at 06:01 AM.

  2. #122
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    3. Surely sauron knew that if the ring was found by the enemy, then nobody would really be powerful enough to challenge him save galadriel or gandalf. Why not just build up for another few generations and attack ME in one giant blitzkrieg?
    I think you are taking what JRRT wrote in letter 131 (as I recall) a bit to literally.

    JRRT does say sort of off the cuff say only Gandalf could keep the ring if facing Sauron personally [I think he sells Galadriel short given the body of work on her, and its only a bit of Victorian thinking but whatever].

    Sauron knowing the ring is found and knowing its in the hands of his Enemies - connect the dots Rivendell->Lorien->Gondor could not wait.

    First he was weaker w/o the ring so would no longer risk leading his forces. Without the ring he never seems to risk facing the Wise and at distance he seems to be out magicked by the wielders of the Three.

    But the other problem is depending on if he knows the Balrog is dead, there are in fact at least 5 other beings of Gandalf's stature hanging around just in the West of ME. All the Wizards and Balrog any of whom might have or get the ring.

    For now taking JRRT at his word the 2 Eldar lords with Rings and Aragorn and Denethor men who could match wills with Sauron in the seeing stones could take up a wield the One and to likely great effect. Maybe not keep from Saroun in Person but Saroun could not cause that confrontation. They would soon have the power likely master his armies and break his hold over the Nazgul. JRRT says Saroun controls them by holding the Nine, and he also says Frodo in his state at Mt Doom could never master them, but than again that power was not likely ever in him...

    "`I would ask one thing before we go,' said Frodo, `a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in
    Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the
    thoughts of those that wear them? '
    `You have not tried,' she said. `Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you
    knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings
    give power according to the measure of each possessor?"

    The Nazgul were perhaps the only servents Saroun could rely on to actually give him the One ring and loosing them would loose him his most able Commanders as well.

    He really did have to act and act quickly. It also true that there is no reason to think his grip was absolute in the rest of ME. The Eastern Dwarves might not have been hostile but they not likely Sauron's buddies either.The Blue wizards seem to have fallen (away from their mission), but remained in opposition to Sauron, To the Deep south there were Balck Numenorians who may or may not have supported him (the Mouth of Sauron is called a renegade for example). The New Dwarves Frodo meets in the FoTH tell of war far away to the east.
    Last edited by conon394; January 06, 2013 at 08:07 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #123
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Would add however Galadriel is not in doubt to master the Ring due to her being a woman but because she is not Maia, and that Elrond is credible to manage only if Galadriel can be considered do it first [in conclusion; not chronological] - while I certainly not oppose the notion Tolkien had a victorian view on women.

    The rest also I concur upon;
    But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.
    - 131

    Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.
    - 246
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 06, 2013 at 09:01 AM.
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  4. #124
    The Despondent Mind's Avatar Auxiliarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Ancalagon's death;



    The simple human/elf defeating a dragon (or giant, large snake or other beast etc depending on historical myths) is classic, and have a theme of that the individual can accomplish anything if he tries to. T
    The problem is we see that too much outside of Tolkien , yet he repeats it again and again .

    Now I remembered that Pippin killed the leader of Olog Hai

    And how can one describe a Giant Titanic battle with giant dragons,eagles and flying ships in one tiny paragraph .

    Glaurung's death is cool though .

  5. #125
    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    It is part of all Humans myths, we need it. Tolkien continues especially the Norse tradition and you will note that in it and in Tolkien, there is always a terrible price to pay for such heroic feats (in Tolkien probably strengthened by his experiences in WWI).

    One can describe it like that because one died before one could go further, but also because like the brilliant writer and intellectual Tolkien was, and very much in contrast to f.x. Jordan or Salvatore, Tolkien knew that it is best to describe in broad terms, but just as detailed that people will form their own interpretation; customised to them. That is part of Tolkien's greatness.

  6. #126
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    As always Ngugi - johnny on the spot with quotes... A resource we can all depend on.

    Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.


    So that just reiterates the worry from S perspective since as I said at least 5 beings besides Gandalf could do that. JRRT tends to use Gandalf as an example, but I think that is because he was the one who had the ring in close proximity.

    It also interesting to recall Sauron seems to have lost the manual on the Ring (click the red button on the key fob and the RIng will make a telepathic chirping noise). He is at first not even sure it is still extent and obviously never knew where it was per say. The only time he comes close is when Frodo uses while sitting on another tool of Power, and than when Frodo claims it the heart of Mordor. So once he knows its found Sauorn has to be frantic to find it - I would not wonder if his wars in the East and South suffered whit his attention and worry all focused on where he thought the Ring was (he certainly was not sparing any Nazgul for operations out there).
    Last edited by conon394; January 06, 2013 at 09:25 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @ T' V' M' & Macilrille

    I think, in combination with the fact that Tolkien created a mythos inspired by existing ones, that Tolkien actually was to cynical to belive in the need of strenght and might and other than courage of the heart, right arms and a hilarious bunch of luck (or divine will?) to gain victory.
    He had been in a war were the ideals of noble and heroic warfare was exchanged for pointless massacres in the trenches and the most physichal and mental strong would fall from a bullet from afar just as easy as the weak, and a bullet from eithers weapon would bring a foe death equally.

    When it comes to kill a troll I have no issue with the fact that Pippin killed the Hill-trolls (no Olog-hai present in LotR) leader, he just had the right (enchanted) weapon for it and a lucky position.

    Concerning the rest of the "big foes" Sauron is only taken down by folk from Valinor like Huan or Gil-galad with friends or semi-Maiar like Luthien;
    Balrogs are only killed by High-Elves or other Maiar - in all known cases at the prize of their deaths;
    of 4 named dragons 3 is killed by Men, but the great majority of that race by High-elves and Maiar (personal conclusion of the war of Wrath), and for sure Eärendil and great birds of who many like the eagles may be Maiar;
    the Nazgûl has respected the threat from mighty Dúnedain lords but only High-Elves or Maiar scared them - the Witch-kings death of course a human deed but hey, it's a seriously cunning plot surprise in the book since you do not know it's Eowyn before the challenge begun, the prohecy is known and Eowyn remove "his" helmet, so not really worth counting IMO haha.


    @ conon'
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  8. #128
    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    It is not a question of what he believes Ngugi, for I agree with you, but he knows the tradition in which he writes, and the "tropes" for it.

  9. #129
    The Yogi's Avatar Kabe difendā
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    For some reason, Dwarven characters are always portrayed as speaking with a Scottish accent in fantasy movies (not only LOTR). Is this reason to be found in Tolkien's writing? (I who ask have read Tolkien only translated to my native language, and in those translations it does not seem Gimli or other Dwarves speak with any particular accent).

    If not Tolkien, where does this trope come from?

  10. #130
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    To all my knowledge Tolkien has never given a hint about Scottish, rather we would be encouraged to look to hebreic or arabic since that's the language family he took inspiration frome.

    A very common answer is that the reason is Blizzard with their Warcraft-series Dwarves speaking Scottish created the idea, and not heard any alternative story so far.

    As trivia I however read that;
    John Rhys-Davies, who plays Gimli, uses a faux rustic accent based on northern English (not northern British) accents, especially the Sheffield accent. This one is favoured by many actors, mostly of British origin, who wish to use "antiquated but rural" accents. A good example of a natural speaker for this dialect is Sean Bean, who plays Boromir (but uses a higher fake accent closer to the supposed Received Pronunciation), but in "Game of Thrones" uses his natural unaffected accent.
    Which would be fun if so, since the LotR triology indeed is considered also to blame for cementing this phenomena hehe.
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 06, 2013 at 10:31 AM.
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  11. #131
    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    If anything Tolkien's Dwarves should be speaking with a Norse accent, why?

    1. They are inspired by Norse Dwarves, they even have similar names. Edit, not similar names; I meant the same names.
    2. They live and have lived for ages surrounded by Northmen, in the Second Age in alliances that created strong realms. So their main human contact is with Northmen, speaking Norse-ish languages.

  12. #132
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Yes Warcraft does have their Sean Connery-esque dwarves, however their community sucks and TWcenter doesn't. So hah to them and their stereotypical dwarves!
    Sauron's Miseries: My tale of heroism, glory and of utter failures that ruin the Dark Lord's plans:http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=542268
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    And see where it all began in: Three Jewels, One Valar. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=555203

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    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @ Macilrille

    At first glance that might seem correct, but then we also have the fact to take into consideration that most names used are "translations" from the real ME languages into something that appered fitting, and not names that actually were - in any ME language.
    Meaning the lingustic relationship between the northern languages of the North, including the one giving names to the Dwarves, is a "modern cover" from the authors part with no true implications, on for example dialect.

    See HoME 12; Of Dwarves and Men beginning with "The case of the Dwarves of Moria was an example of adaptation of names from Mannish languages of the North, ..." and ending at sub chapters end (page 300-301 in my 'pocket' version)
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  14. #134
    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    But then somewhere else in HoME that I have quoted a couple of times we do learn that the language of the Eotheod was the first recorded language of Germans and the language of their Rohir descendants that of the later Germans; the Anglo-Saxons.

    In both cases inspired. So, they should have Norse accents in any case. That is, I believe hard for a native English actor to do though, hence the Scottish perhaps...

    Back to work.

  15. #135
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    Ιt depends IMO. The People of the Vales have Anglo-Saxon names, and only the descendants of the Northmen east of the Great Forest seem to have Norse names at the last millenium if the Third Age. So, why does ALL the recorded Dwarven names are Norse? OK, in Erebor and Iron Hills they are suitable, but considering that the Grey Mts, Moria and Ered Luin( not to mention the short-lived dwellings at Dunland) were quite far off the Norse-speaking mannish populations of Northeastern Rhovanion.

    (Yes, I can recall the Letter where Tolkien regretted having named the Dwarves of the Hobbit in Norse)

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Tolkien worked in the manner that he chose English to translate Westron, and for the related language of Rohirrim he took Old English, which meant related languages to them has to be other germanic languages like Old Norse for the Northmen who gave Dwarves names* and Old Gothic for the Northmen of Rhovanion who precede the Eotheod.

    Naturally this is just a "fictional" (hoho, the irony) matter since Westron is not English, and thus the use of other germanic languages to look like its related languages are also nothing but a decore, to appeal and create easier entrence to the world to modern readers, but not the real Middle-earth languages.


    * I am 100% sure this is just a post-explanation in teh case of Dwarven names as they were taken for the Hobbit in a time that novel had nothing to do with his mythos.
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  17. #137
    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Ιt depends IMO. The People of the Vales have Anglo-Saxon names, and only the descendants of the Northmen east of the Great Forest seem to have Norse names at the last millenium if the Third Age. So, why does ALL the recorded Dwarven names are Norse? OK, in Erebor and Iron Hills they are suitable, but considering that the Grey Mts, Moria and Ered Luin( not to mention the short-lived dwellings at Dunland) were quite far off the Norse-speaking mannish populations of Northeastern Rhovanion.

    (Yes, I can recall the Letter where Tolkien regretted having named the Dwarves of the Hobbit in Norse)
    Dwarves are conservative. Their "mannish" names were derived from contact with Northmen in the early second age and they did not change them later when the Númenorans came.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Considering that the language of the Northmen at the time of Vindugavia was early Germanic (Gothic unless my memory fails), we could asssume that their ancestor's language when they were allied with the Dwarves of Durin's Folk before the War of the Elves and Sauron would be an even earlier one of the Germanic family. In the end, though, his choice of names for Thorin and Co. pretty much eliminated any alternatives he would have chosen in later days..

  19. #139
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    What's FoTH?

  20. #140
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    A typo of FotR simply
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