Tolkien General Discussion II

[Ngugi]

I have heard the same hypothesis regarding the Ents.

It's in a footnote from Letter 163:

* Take the Ents, for instance. ...
Their pan in the story is due, I think, to my bitter disappointment and disgust from schooldays with the shabby use made in Shakespeare of the coming of 'Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill': I longed to devise a setting in which the trees might really march to war.
...

[Mank]

I'm thinking of starting a sub-mod for Angmar and was wondering if there was anyone who really knew just how far The Witch-King got in his campaign. From what I have read and researched I know for sure he sacked Amon-Sul and Fornost, but I'm not sure about towns that show up on the map such as Tharbad, Athilin, or even Annuminas for that matter. I know he sent plagues all over, but did his armies actually march through Cardolan to sack Argond? Did his armies ever actually make it to the southern downs? If any lore-experts know a bit more about the conquest of the Northern Kingdom I'd love to hear about it!

Thanks!

-Mank

[knight of meh]

he was turned back at the battle of Fornost i believe anything else is unclear in my mind i will have to think about it ... unless Ngugi sees this thread first

Edit: yeah it says he was turned back at Fornost and the north downs

also it says Cardolan (the south kingdom) was ravaged afaik can't think if it names specific places sorry , the last of the Dunedain here were taken by plaque

[Mank]

Hmmm...so do you think in terms of a "restored Angmar" having all the regions within the Atherdain and Cardolan regions would be fair game and reasonably lore-correct (Argond, Tharbad, Annuminas, Athilin...basically all of Eriador)? Tolkien Gateway said nothing about Tharbad being conqured, but that might have just been an omission...

I suppose having all the regions that Arnor requires for re-unification (shire included) would be a good photo-negative as far as gameplay goes, but I really don't want to stray too far afield from lore if at all possible...and as you said the Witch-King was driven back at Fornost (which really isn't that far down into Eriador).

[Ngugi]

Most Angmar info, which is little all books combined, can be found in Appendix A and B, so lay your hands on them in RotK for some first hand info.
Cardolan was not occupied, only ravaged;

A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, and crossing the river entered Cardolan and surrounded Weathertop. ... Cardolan was ravaged. ...
- Appendix A; The North-Kingdom and the Dúnedain

[knight of meh]

in the lore Annúminas did not survive the split of Arnor with any significant population Fornost was Arthedains capital so yeah it's fair game

as for Tharbad i am not sure you see it was shared with Gondor and Cardolan but with the plaque it was almost completely deserted by Dunedain they fled to Arthedain (taken from tolkiengateway from here on i didn't know this) and then was inhabited by people akin to bree-men or dunlendings for another 800 years before bad floods drove them out

[Mank]

Hmmm...well then from the sound of things and what it had to say in the appendices bringing in areas such as The Shire or even Annuminas would be a bit too liberal for my taste. Fornost and Amon-Sul for sure....maybe Athilin in terms of the TATW map for area cohesion, but certainly not Argond or even Annuminas. That will really shift the idea in terms of re-unification, as it seems there really was never much of an occupation as much as a Hannibal-like ravaging of land. Thanks for the input Meh and Ngugi, it definitely helps claify the overall vision of how things will unfold!

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Not Annuminas. It's never stated that it was conquered, as it was already uninhabited and deserted. The ravaging most likely was because the Witch-King didn't care for the place and merely wanted to destroy it's ability to wage war in the future.

[Moemoeng]

Thanks for answering my previous question I was wondering where Elrond and Elros grew up when they were taken "captive/adopted" by Maglor, since the Havens of Sirion was the last place of Elves and Men in Middle-Earth (besides the Isle of Balar)? Did they grew up in Ossiriand where the sons of Feanor lived after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad?

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I was thinking on something. In the Silmarillion, the choice of the Noldor to return is treated as bad, but think of this: If the Noldor had listened to the Valar, what would have become of Men? They most certainly have fallen under Morgoth's thrall, or become the dishes in AFC (Angband Fried Manflesh, with it's mascot, Sauron). The Sindar would most probably have refused to take them in, as initially they disliked Men intensely.

[Ngugi]

It indeed had the good outcome that Morgoth was closed in and Men got to meet Calaquendi.
That however do not mean that the rebellion itself was good, based on lies and rage and kinslaying, only that it had good unintended results, as had been forseen by Illuvatar that each evil would be turned against itself.

[Manwë] must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of ‘history’ in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come.
One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evil of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the re-establishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transferrence to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would ‘fade’.


- HoME 10; Myths Transformed, VII; iii

[Macilrille]

Popped in to post this that you might find interesting. I know my Swedish friend will.

[Macilrille]

It indeed had the good outcome that Morgoth was closed in and Men got to meet Calaquendi.
That however do not mean that the rebellion itself was good, based on lies and rage and kinslaying, only that it had good unintended results, as had been forseen by Illuvatar that each evil would be turned against itself.

Which fits Tolkien's Christian philosophy fine. Indeed it could have been taken right out of one of the medieval Christian thinkers' works.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I think some of you here might appreciate this.

[Ngugi]

Popped in to post this that you might find interesting. I know my Swedish friend will.

Oh, I do

And personally I enjoyed this familiar face today ^^

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[RedGuard]

i got a question, just finished reading the two towers and have read all the way to the ride of the rohiriim in return of the king. where exactly does it say that there were ten thousand uruk-hai at elms deep or did Jackson just pull that from his ass? also quite comically Theoden says that with all the men at his command together it would equal 10000 but only 6000 will ride with him to Gondor for obivous reasons that they will likely all die. So why would he be shocked at the 10000 #? as if that number was unheard of in middle earth?

[Ngugi]

i got a question, just finished reading the two towers and have read all the way to the ride of the rohiriim in return of the king. where exactly does it say that there were ten thousand uruk-hai at elms deep or did Jackson just pull that from his ass? also quite comically Theoden says that with all the men at his command together it would equal 10000 but only 6000 will ride with him to Gondor for obivous reasons that they will likely all die. So why would he be shocked at the 10000 #? as if that number was unheard of in middle earth?

Not 10' Uruks directly, but the movie has simplified the Isengard force to a pure uruk army. However it should be noted that the Uruks are labled as Orcs as well in the books making it a bit hard to make out the difference;

' ... We thought that we had been discovered, and that battle was going to begin. But nothing of the sort. All Saruman's people were marching away. I don't know much about this war, or about the Horsemen of Rohan, but Saruman seems to have meant to finish off the king and all his men with one final blow. He emptied Isengard. I saw the enemy go: endless lines of marching Orcs; and troops of them mounted on great wolves. And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. ... Well, of all sorts together, there must have been ten thousand at the very least,' said Merry. (...)


'"Hoom! Gandalf!" said Treebeard. "I am glad you have come. Wood and water, stock and stone, I can master; but there is a Wizard to manage here."
'"Treebeard," said Gandalf. "I need your help. You have done much, but I need more. I have about ten thousand Orcs to manage."

- The Two Towers; Flotsam and Jetsam

[Macilrille]

Also you have their reasons wrong. The Rohir army was a professional army- it went where it had to, whether it would survive or not. The Rohir are a heroic people inspired by the Anglo-Saxons and Norse and in their own heroic myths these would rather die than retreat. Hence it is not for fear of death that only 6-7 K Rohir can go to Gondor's rescue. It is because there are still women and children to guard, rebuilding after an invasion (and PoWs) to oversee and logistics to care for.

[RedGuard]

Also you have their reasons wrong. The Rohir army was a professional army- it went where it had to, whether it would survive or not. The Rohir are a heroic people inspired by the Anglo-Saxons and Norse and in their own heroic myths these would rather die than retreat. Hence it is not for fear of death that only 6-7 K Rohir can go to Gondor's rescue. It is because there are still women and children to guard, rebuilding after an invasion (and PoWs) to oversee and logistics to care for.

sorry for the miscommunication i understood that but as theoden states the likelyhood of most of them if not all returning is high and taking all the men with him would be foolish thus leaving rohan completely unguarded.

[Macilrille]

Ah, I see. I thought you had bought into the film version of the men of Rohan and Gondor who are brainless, frightened and weak simpletons mostly running around like headless chickens when Viggo is not telling them what to do.