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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @ muller'
    The Tatyar was very hostile towards the Eldar and Noldor in particulair, so I must say that sounds unlikley. An example is Eöl, and in HoME we can read:
    The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seemed to have claimed to be Tatyar, who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name Noldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Noldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance.

    This ill-feeling descended in part from the bitterness of the Debate before the March of the Eldar began, and was no doubt later increased by the machinations of Morgoth; but it also throws some light on the temperament of the Noldor in general, and Feanor in particular. Indeed the Teleri on their side asserted that most of the Noldor in Aman itself were in heart Avari, and returned to Middle-Earth when they discovered their mistake; they needed room to quarrel in.
    - HoME 11; Quendi and Eldar; The Clan names
    It should be noted in this text a lots of Avari was intended to been in Belerieand which AFAIK was rejected later on

    The implication that as opposed to Celbin [S. for all Elves but Avari] the Moerbin [S. for anyone in ME that do not live in Beleriand] were allies of Morgoth, or at least of dubious loyalty, was, however, untrue with regard to the Avari. No Elf of any kind ever sided with Morgoth of free will, though under torture or the stress of great fear, or deluded by lies, they might obey his commands: but this applied also to Celbin.

    The 'Dark-elves', however, often were hostile, and even treacherous, in their dealings with the Sindar and Ñoldor; and if they fought, as they did when themselves assailed by the Orcs, they never took any open part in the War on the side of the Celbin. They were, it seems, filled with an inherited bitterness against the Eldar, whom they regarded as deserters of their kin, and in Beleriand this feeling was increased by envy (especially of the Amanyar), and by resentment of their lordliness. The belief of the Celbin that, at the least, they were weaker in resistance to the pressures or lies of Morgoth, if this grievance was concerned, may have been justified; but the only case recorded in the histories is that of Maeglin, the son of Eöl.

    The belief of the Celbin that, at the least, they were weaker in resistance to the pressures or lies of Morgoth, if this grievance was concerned, may have been justified; but the only case recorded in the histories is that of Maeglin, the son of Eöl. Eöl was a Mornedhel, and is said to have belonged to the Second Clan (whose representatives among the Eldar were the Ñoldor).# He dwelt in East Beleriand not far from the borders of Doriath. He had great smith-craft, especially in the making of swords, in which work he surpassed even the Ñoldor of Aman; and many therefore believed that he used the morgul, the black arts taught by Morgoth. The Ñoldor themselves had indeed learned much from Morgoth in the days of his captivity in Valinor; but it is more likely that Eöl was acquainted with the Dwarves, for in many places the Avari became closer in friendship with that people than the Amanyar or the Sindar. Eöl found Írith (34), the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar.

    His son Maeglin was later admitted to Gondolin, and given honour as the king's sisterson; but in the end he betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth. Maeglin was indeed an Elf of evil temper and dark mind, and he had a lust and grudge of his own to satisfy; but even so he did what he did only after torment and under a cloud of fear.
    Some of the Nandor, who were allowed to be Celbin, were not any better. Saeros, a counsellor of King Thingol, who belonged to a small clan of Nandor living in eastern Doriath, was chiefly responsible for the driving into outlawry of Túrin son of Húrin. Túrin's mother was named Morwen 'dark maiden', because of her dark hair, and it was one of Saeros' worst insults to call her Morben. For that Túrin smote him in the king's hall.
    ’This resentment on the part of the Avari is illustrated by the history of PQ *kwendi. This word, as has been shown, did not survive in the Telerin languages of Middle-earth, and was almost forgotten even in the Telerin of Aman. But the Loremasters of later days, when more friendly relations had been established with Avari of various kinds in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin, record that it was frequently to be found in Avarin dialects. These were numerous, and often as widely sundered from one another as they were from the Eldarin forms of Elvish speech; but wherever the descendants of *kwendi were found, they meant not ’Elves in general’, but were the names that the Avari gave to themselves.

    ... The form penni is cited as coming from the ’Wood-elven’ speech of the Vale of Anduin, and these Elves were among the most friendly to the fugitives from Beleriand, and held themselves akin to the remnants of the Sindar.
    - HoME 11; Quendi and Eldar; Author's notes to Quendi and Eldar; Note 9
    Of course, it could been different in later ages, but do not think we have any support for this; as you duly note.
    The only refered population of Lindon is Noldor, Sindar and Nandor of both Beleriand and Eriador?
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  2. #102
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    I have another one of my tedious questions .

    Can somebody explain me how exactly Ancalagon and Glaurung were killed .

    Especially Ancalagon , I mean how can you even get close to him ? I read in wiki's that Thorondor killed him using an airship .That sounds so anti climatic to me .

    And I all know about Glaurung is that Túrin was stabbed from beneath , again how did he even come close there . Another thing how can somebody kill a dragon with a sword/arrow , to mean it's like a human is killed by a tooth pick .

    This is what really pisses of me about Tolkien , you have all these Huge , Almost Godlike creatures killed by Elves/Man , it's really lame and maybe even repetitive .

    Damn I really need to read The Silmarillion .

    Also I read that Ancalagon would have not been able to melt The One ring (I think it's mentioned in one of the LOTR books) , but based on what , Ancalagon seems like he could have Sauron for an easy breakfast , why would his petty ring be such a problem ?
    Last edited by The Despondent Mind; January 05, 2013 at 03:06 PM.

  3. #103
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    Honestly it is a great liberty I take with Tolkien which is why I declare it unsupported. I hope no one took it as actual lore. The Tatyar are shadowy, fairly numerous and disappear, Gil-Galad and Elrond are far less proud than Caranthir and other Elves and the House of Feanor whom their main contact was with. I think it makes sense they could have worked together in the 2nd age as no Elves were divided about Sauron.


    Yep I am stretching, stretching and a little more stretching. Hey I am honest about it and taking Tolkiens word on the fact that we were meant to to continue his work not enshrine it unchanging. Continue within legitimate bounds I might add.
    Last edited by muller227; January 05, 2013 at 03:05 PM.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Vitiated Mind View Post
    I have another one of my tedious questions .

    Can somebody explain me how exactly Ancalagon and Glaurung were killed .

    Especially Ancalagon , I mean how can you even get close to him ? I read in wiki's that Thorondor killed him using an airship .That sounds so anti climatic to me .

    And I all know about Glaurung is that Túrin was stabbed from beneath , again how did he even come close there . Another thing how can somebody kill a dragon with a sword/arrow , to mean it's like a human is killed by a tooth pick .

    This is what really pisses of me about Tolkien , you have all these Huge , Almost Godlike creatures killed by Elves/Man , it's really lame and maybe even repetitive .

    Damn I really need to read The Silmarillion .
    Earendil killed Ancalagon an they fought for possibly days.

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  5. #105
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    Earendil killed Ancalagon an they fought for possibly days
    I know that , I asked HOW .

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Vitiated Mind View Post
    I know that , I asked HOW .
    You said Thorondor.

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  7. #107
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    Ancalagon's death;
    Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.
    But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin.
    - Silmarillion; Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath
    Glaurung's bane wound;
    Now Turambar came to Nen Girith at sundown, and there he learned that Glaurung lay on the brink of the high shores of Teiglin, and was like to move when night fell. Then he called those tidings good; for the dragon lay at Cabed-en-Aras, where the river ran in a deep and narrow gorge that a hunted deer might overleap, and Turambar thought that he would seek no further, but would attempt to pass over the gorge. Therefore he purposed to creep down at dusk, and descend into the ravine under night, and cross over the wild water; and then to climb up the further cliff, and so come to the dragon beneath his guard.
    This counsel he took, but the heart of Dorlas failed when they came to the races of Teiglin in the dark, and he dared not attempt the perilous crossing, but drew back and lurked in the woods, burdened with shame. Turambar and Hunthor, nonetheless, crossed over in safety, for the loud roaring of the water drowned all other sounds, and Glaurung slept. But ere the middle-night the dragon roused, and with a great noise and blast cast his forward part across the chasm, and began to draw his bulk after. Turambar and Hunthor were well-nigh overcome by the heat and the stench, as they sought in haste for a way up to come at Glaurung; and Hunthor was slain by a great stone that was dislodged from on high by the passage of the dragon, and smote him on the head and cast him into the river. So he ended, of the house of Haleth not the least valiant
    Then Turambar summoned all his will and courage and climbed the cliff alone, and came beneath the dragon. Then he drew Gurthang, and with all the might of his arm, and of his hate, he thrust it into the soft belly of the Worm, even up to the hilts. But when Glaurung felt his death-pang, he screamed, and in his dreadful throe he heaved up his bulk and hurled himself across the chasm, and there lay lashing and coiling in his agony. And he set all in a blaze about him, and beat all to ruin, until at last his fires died, and he lay still.
    - Silmarillion; Of Túrin Turambar
    If you get a stab into your incestines you're, without modern (or magic perhaps hehe) medical treatment or enormous luck, screwed. Gut wounds are among the worst to handle.
    And Túrin wields Gurthang, no toothpick.

    The simple human defeating a dragon (or giant, large snake or other beast etc depending on historical myths) is classic, and have a theme of that the individual can accomplish anything if he tries to. The story would been far more boring if Men could not kill their foes but have to run to someone else every time. It's not like they usually manage anyway, there's only three Men who kill a Dragon; Túrin, Fram and Bard, the first and last with known supernatural arms.
    Other creatures as Balrogs they never manage to defeat.

    Make yourself a good favour and get Silmarillion, then you get first hand info, clearer view on the logics of Tolkien and a really good time.
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  8. #108
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    Earandil's ship had this specially designed extending ram designed by Aule that shot the power of Earandils silmaril forth into the night which was a sword pure light.


    Honestly who the knows, Earandil in his airship maybe spaceship killed him. It is from the heavens so I would give credit to Varda powering him up in some way, partly because it is sorta in the lore and second Elbereth is the coolest of all the Vala. First too say FU Melkor, you are such a dweeb. Tulkas was strong and scared him a bit, Manwe was his unfallen and sort of equivalent brother, Varda was pure and I guess had that unique female power of making one feel worthless.

    This is one you have too imagine yourself, Tolkien had a tendency too do that.
    Last edited by muller227; January 05, 2013 at 03:29 PM.

  9. #109
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    In the last version (in The Problem of Ros), Tolkien suggest that Ancalagon was finally killed by turin who come back from outside Arda.

    Tolkien left behind him many contentious topics.
    If only he was still here and tell us more about his world and what he think about the book released after his death (Silmarrillion for instance) and Peter Jackson work haha.
    Many of us are wondering what will happen in Middle Earth in the 4th Age, this is what I found.

    There is a sequel, its name The New Shadow, exists as about ten pages of manuscript (published in Peoples of Middle-Earth). It is the beginning fragment of a story set in Gondor about 100 years after the beginning of the Fouth Age. A notable plot point in it is 'orc-cults' among adolescents. In this future Gondor, once orcs have vanished enough to be piece of folklore or a by-word, there comes to be a rebellious appeal to their acts of empty, wastful evil, and some defiant youngsters take up playing at doing "orc-work". This is a shadow of a wider evil plot, and a sign of renewed potential for corruption amongst morals.

    Readers will never know the full details of what this orc-work foreshadowed. Tolkien attempted to work on the story several times, up to fifteen months before his death. However, he did not finish the stoy, saying that its concept proved "both sinister and depressing...not worth doing"
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  10. #110
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Yeah, The New Shadow manuscripts had the potential to become a great thriller based on Middle Earth, but it was seemingly out of JRR's interest.

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    Yup, however JRR never wrote a version where Túrin returned and slew Ancalagon in the War of Wrath, making it impossible to use that idea
    (Túrin's shifting rolesin a "Last Battle" of shifting kind is in itself worthy of a dissertation haha ^^)
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by muller227 View Post
    I should add a brilliant and great git. I am a great fan of Feanor's brilliance, his politics and personal actions not so much. The attack on Alquolonde and the burning of the ships at Losgar are sort of a turn off for me. Not too mention dragging his kids into that perfidious oath. Greatest of all the Elves absolutely, nevertheless I don't like him much.
    Feanor is one of my favourite characters and I feel his only intentions were that of good. But they came out all wrong in the end. I personally feel great pity towards Feanor, and definitely consider him one of the Greatest aswell. But I still love him even dispite his tragic actions and consequences.



    And ugh all this talk of Elven lines is getting me confused again O.o
    Last edited by Alkarin; January 05, 2013 at 04:59 PM.
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    Over a few years I have considered the place of Darwinian evolution in Tolkien's writings. Tolkien seems to accept the fact that this scientific phenomena exists, survival of the fittest, a good thing in most modern philosophy. Tolkien turns this on its head, evolution is the marring of Arda. It is the working of the wild and destructive essence of Morgoth loose in the created fabric of Ea. In the marring does Melor become much weaker as he expends his natural force. This is important, it is a much weakened Morgoth in physical form that faces Fingolfin, not the Morgoth that defeated the combined Vala and through down the lamps. The original is divine a sense we get from Lothlorien. The long defeat described by Galadriel, is not by Sauron, she is not that afraid of Sauron, with him she has options, there is no escaping the marring, it has entered even into Valinor as we see with the story of Miriel. The great fortress of the Vala holds it at bay for the most part at least for now.

    Just sorta throwing that out there.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by muller227 View Post
    Over a few years I have considered the place of Darwinian evolution in Tolkien's writings. Tolkien seems to accept the fact that this scientific phenomena exists, survival of the fittest, a good thing in most modern philosophy. Tolkien turns this on its head, evolution is the marring of Arda. It is the working of the wild and destructive essence of Morgoth loose in the created fabric of Ea. In the marring does Melor become much weaker as he expends his natural force. This is important, it is a much weakened Morgoth in physical form that faces Fingolfin, not the Morgoth that defeated the combined Vala and through down the lamps. The original is divine a sense we get from Lothlorien. The long defeat described by Galadriel, is not by Sauron, she is not that afraid of Sauron, with him she has options, there is no escaping the marring, it has entered even into Valinor as we see with the story of Miriel. The great fortress of the Vala holds it at bay for the most part at least for now.

    Just sorta throwing that out there.
    I think it has to do with his Catholic background, and his theme in relation of the plan of all existence is perfect from the beginning only to be corrupted by others wrong doing in an attempt to make it better than it is etc. You can see a lot of relations between Eru and the Christian god as you can make a lot of parallels of the Valar to Scandinavian Mythologys. If you look at it all the technological advancements and marring of forests and the like are essentially undoing the work and will of Eru therefore having dire consequences.
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    @ muller'
    Not quite, the changes in matter are due to the more speedy time; the sun and the moon.
    And this is not a machination of Morgoth, be it because to Morgoth, but not more so than the rain or snow are result of Morgoth affecting heat and cold but not the water itself (if to go with the older version, where the sun have not been present all the time).
    Either way development and change is part of the world, and since trying to stop that like with the Rings, is close to an evil thing we can assume the change (of which evolution ought to be seen as a part of) is part of Eru's original intention.

    But all in all I do not think a coherence with Darwinism carry much weight, since his stories take a religious and mythological starting point, meaning the story is written that way and should be read that way just as we read old Norse legends etc without feeling the need to adjust it to modern scientific insights?
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    1. What does a dragon need will gold? (smaug)
    2. Why does it seem that denethor wastes a lot of his fathers attempts to protect gondor? Do you think he was a bit racist? In the sense his believed his heritage was superior any other peoples?
    3. Surely sauron knew that if the ring was found by the enemy, then nobody would really be powerful enough to challenge him save galadriel or gandalf. Why not just build up for another few generations and attack ME in one giant blitzkrieg?

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    Which version of the Legendarium do you support? The Round World or the Flat World? My personal preference lies with the Flat one and it is the one I deem as canon. Why? Because it is more complete, more mythological and was the one included in the Silmarillion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by avenging angel View Post
    1. What does a dragon need will gold? (smaug)
    2. Why does it seem that denethor wastes a lot of his fathers attempts to protect gondor? Do you think he was a bit racist? In the sense his believed his heritage was superior any other peoples?
    3. Surely sauron knew that if the ring was found by the enemy, then nobody would really be powerful enough to challenge him save galadriel or gandalf. Why not just build up for another few generations and attack ME in one giant blitzkrieg?
    1) Dragons are naturally greedy and consideirng that the dwarves loved to pile up their gold into huge and convienient piles the dragons simply took the hoards by force.

    2) Ecthelion was aided by a disguised Aragorn, who attacked Umbar. But don't be fooled by that, Gondor was waning anyway. However Denethor was definitely jealous of Aragorn (even if he did not guess who he was for some years) and that may have hampered his efforts somewhat. And lets be honest, battling with Sauron in a contest of wills is enough to drive most people to the point of delusionial ranting.

    3) Two reasons. Firstly, he figured he had enough orcs and men under his control. I believe he had many tens of thousands at the Pelennor, more than enough to take Minas Tirith. He didn't really believe he needed to wait any longer. Secondly, he discovered that the ring had been found, and worse, was held by people he had no idea existed, and were resilient to the ring. That may have caused him to panic and lash out. However Aragorn did speed the attack along by revealing himself which caused even more panic for Sauron.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    However, Denethor, contrasting PJ's socalled interpretation, does not fall so far. He just breaks and get a severe depression eventually as his sons die, his city is surrounded and he sees The Ringbearer captured.
    Denethor is a noble man in whom the blood of Númenor runs true, but who is worn down fighting the long, desperate battle against the armies of darkness through the years, and against the will of Sauron himself when using the Palantír whilethe fate of his nation rests on his shoulders (consider how much Obama has aged during the last four years and how little his burden is compared to Denethor's).

    Few men could have done better than Denethor.

    He is a noble, but tragic figure, let not PJs crap influence your judgement.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Ancalagon's death;

    Glaurung's bane wound;
    If you get a stab into your incestines you're, without modern (or magic perhaps hehe) medical treatment or enormous luck, screwed. Gut wounds are among the worst to handle.
    And Túrin wields Gurthang, no toothpick.

    The simple human defeating a dragon (or giant, large snake or other beast etc depending on historical myths) is classic, and have a theme of that the individual can accomplish anything if he tries to. The story would been far more boring if Men could not kill their foes but have to run to someone else every time. It's not like they usually manage anyway, there's only three Men who kill a Dragon; Túrin, Fram and Bard, the first and last with known supernatural arms.
    Other creatures as Balrogs they never manage to defeat.

    Make yourself a good favour and get Silmarillion, then you get first hand info, clearer view on the logics of Tolkien and a really good time.
    A bit of trivia for those who haven't read alot of Norse mythology (which Tolkien based a lot of his works on).

    The story of how Turin kills Glaurung is inspired by the story of Sigurd and the Volsunga saga. Sigurd is enlisted by a man named Regin, to reclaim gold stolen by Regin's brother Fafnir, who has now turned into a serpent-like dragon, not much unlike Glaurung. At night he digs a hole outside Fafnir's cave, and waits for the dragon to come out to drink water from the river in the morning. When the dragon's heart was above Sigurd he pierced it with his magical sword, Gram and thus the dragon was dead. By accident he then licked the dragon's blood and suddenly he could understand what the birds were saying, and because of this averted an attempt by Regin to betray him.


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