Tolkien General Discussion II

[knight of meh]

the mudpit was saruman creating his uruk-hai a mixture of men and orcs some serious bad mojo but the coccoon mudpit thing could have been part of the orc life cycle yes .. don't think it was though think that was sarumam being all evil genius

[Ngugi]

The "Mud pit" idea was Tolkien's old and discarded idea of how Orcs were created by Morgoth, outo f the earth, before he got the idea they were created from Elves, Men and other living things - Morgoth could not create life of his own was concluded.

The only reason I can think of the movies skipped all that and brought up the obsolete mud pit idea (that's really dumd as we're also told Orcs are created out of Elves and Elves don't get born out of mud) was that the company did not want to make tha audience think on Orcs and Men having sex, which is how Uruk's are created [deeming Man-orcs to equal Uruks]

[jthewonder]

Yeah that does seem pretty darn weird that they went that way.

On a sidenote, orcs come from elves and uruks come from an orc/men mix, but why are the uruks portrayed then as the stronger 'better' version? I mean, am i completely wrong in thinking that elves are better warriors than the average man and orc? and wouldn't that mean that orcs>uruk-hai in terms or martial prowess ?

[Ngugi]

Bringing more of Men into the Orcs [who presumably are more Men than Elves at this time in history, the whole Orc origin matter is a mess I can tell you haha] mean that the crossbreeds will be taller, as Orcs are compaired to Men short, and that's a big advantage in battle.
They do seem to have a strenght equal to their stature, so they wouldn't be lesser on that account.
They can handle sunlight, a big improvment.
Uruks appear to be a it more reasoning than other Orcs, though that's up for debate. At least they are possible to give a high level of disciplin [seen with Saruman's uruks] which as a rule is the big flaw of the Orcs in battle, that they run away.

[jthewonder]

Im not completely sure im following, you're saying that uruks have all these traits and features like height and discipline which makes them better soldiers. But are you also saying that since this is the Third Age that orcs are now more human than elven?
Im not gonna dig into the origins of the orcs since like you say, its a bit of mess (you've already made me understand them better though), but the thing i can't make sense of is why elves turned evil(=orcs) aren't better soldiers than men turned evil(=uruks)? The way i see it, uruks should be bigger and more disciplined due to the Man input, making them better soldiers. But orcs originate from elves, and as such shouldn't they be better warriors (not soldiers) ?

Im gonna throw in a completely random comparison that i hope you can make some sense of. In the Alien universe, an alien infects a living entity and the alien that will eventually pop out of its chest will be somewhat similar to the living thing it occupied, so if an alien infects a dog it will be smaller, faster but less strong, compared to an alien who infested a human.

[Tankbustaz]

Think of regular orcs like inbred retards, quite ****** and having many physical deformities, now having a man orc hybrid means the recessive orcish traits like being short are not passed instead the dominant traits like being taller, and stronger are passed, much like it happens in nature.

thus Orcs == inbred hillbillies
Uruks == regular hillbillies

[Ngugi]

All uruks are taller yes, but certainly nto by default disciplined, see the uruks at Cirith Ungol; I only deemed them capable of disciplin in a manner not seen among Orcs.
Even if Orcs of the Third Age in origin presumably mainly comes from Men that do not mean they are Man-Orcs. It's not like an Orc of even only Elf origin is an Elf either, an Orc is an Orc due to the body as well as the soul is remolded. Daddy Orc and Mommy Orc get a little Orc.

I have not said that an Orc of Elven origin and an Orc with human origin are different (presumably Orcs of such origins have blended together into "generic Orc" anyway). If there is a difference then that is unknown to us. All in all it should not be looked upon as genetic science - Morgoth was as clsoe to a god one could be who designed the creation of Orcs, and the process to turn Elves and Men (and beasts in some cases) into Orcs is a matter of magic.
Still, an Orc [of whatever origin to our knowledge] getting a child with human result in a crossbreed that gain traits from the human parent/forefather, such as hight, sun tolerance, temper etc, making them different from a normal Orc, gaining some obvious pros compaired to their Orc kin.

[jthewonder]

Thx alot for the quick and detailed answer Ngugi! it seems whenever i need something answered you're the man to do it, best swede eu (comming from a dane, thats high praise!)
And thx to you too Tankbustaz, your answer helped a simpleton like me understand.

Im off on a new TATW campaign, the immersion i get from knowing these things are unparalleled

[RedGuard]

quick question where were the other eight ring wraiths during the battle of pellinor fields?

edit: let me rephrase since its unclear what im asking. Where were the other eight during the actual battle(where rohan and the orcs/harad are fighting, The witch king seems to be the only one leading)

also. why is the witch king s sure that a man cannot kill him? does it have something to do with his ring or is it just the fact that he is incorporeal wraith?

[Lugiahua]

quick question where were the other eight ring wraiths during the battle of pellinor fields?

edit: let me rephrase since its unclear what im asking. Where were the other eight during the actual battle(where rohan and the orcs/harad are fighting, The witch king seems to be the only one leading)

also. why is the witch king s sure that a man cannot kill him? does it have something to do with his ring or is it just the fact that he is incorporeal wraith?

Glorfindel made a "prophecy" that Witch King would not die in the hand of man during battle of Fornost in TA1975.
man could mean both the race or gender, thus WitchKing taunted Eowyn as he thought Glorfindel mean the race.
My guess is that Witch King exploit this prophecy to frighten his enemy

[Poosticks7]

quick question where were the other eight ring wraiths during the battle of pellinor fields?

edit: let me rephrase since its unclear what im asking. Where were the other eight during the actual battle(where rohan and the orcs/harad are fighting, The witch king seems to be the only one leading)

They went to refuel.


Serious answer now - If I recall correctly, they weren't all at the battle. Some were up north fighting elves. Some were seeking the ring/ scouting etc. and the rest were on a break. Damn it my serious answer got silly, sorry.

[RedGuard]

They went to refuel.

i wouldnt doubt it.

didn't eomer fight the witch king in the book and not eowyn? how then was he slain? also why did Glorfindel make that prophecy?

why did

[Ngugi]

No, it is Éowyn:

‘Éowyn! Éowyn!’ cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang.
- RotK; The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Wierd question to me honestly. Because he got the insight is the logical answer, as to why anyone makes a prophecy, or should he not told anybody what he knew?
It's not like the Witch-king became impossible to kill by men, because Glorfindel said it. Glorfindel said it, because the Witch-king was destined to not be killed by men.

But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went.
Eärnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." These words many remembered; but Eärnur was angry, desiring only to be avenged for his disgrace.So ended the evil realm of Angmar; and so did Eärnur, Captain of Gondor, earn the chief hatred of the Witch-king; but many years were still to pass before that was revealed.
- Appendix A

[RedGuard]

No, it is Éowyn:


Wierd question to me honestly. Because he got the insight is the logical answer, as to why anyone makes a prophecy, or should he not told anybody what he knew?
It's not like the Witch-king became impossible to kill by men, because Glorfindel said it. Glorfindel said it, because the Witch-king was destined to not be killed by men.

okay so apparently he just said it kinda nonchalantly and the witch king took it to heart apparently. But my question is how does the witch king know what glorfindel said and not to get all philospohical but is the witch king say that because he knows no man will kill him or that no man can kill him?

note to ones self: never **** with Glorfindel beacuse if he says something if it isnt true yet it will be

[knight of meh]

well there is just over a thousand years between the battle of Fornost (Glorfindels speech) and the battle of Pelennor fields (witch kings death)

so it is safe to assume with all the spying and the fact that other people (i believe0 have heard of the witch kings supposed invulnerability that it passed into legend and the witch king himself could have caught on.

hell he probably could have picked up a book on it at the Gondorian library...

it could be in theory that the witch king was so arrogant at his power that he believed it of his own accord

[Tankbustaz]

To be fair to the Witch-King, he was about to paint the pellenor with Éowyn's brains when Merry did his gig. So the crippling strike that actually caused his ruin was caused by a Non-Human. So man could mean non human in this context. The one point which is clear: Midgets will stab you in the knee.

[knight of meh]

Midgets will stab you in the knee.

Tu tut tut proper terms please they are the vertically challenged hairy feet people

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

But Hobbits are Men. They just happen to be a strange offshoot.

[conon394]

Probably the best mechanism for the WK learning the ideal is that it was heard my many and became sort of a bit of lore in Gondor. Since he went on to battle there at Minas Ithel etc he would have a lot of opportunity to learn the rumor...

I think its more important that what we have is sort of a nod to the classic topee of a character thinking they have plot armor due to either misunderstanding or over relaying on a prophecy for more than it says. Real life example would the Croesus king of Lydia. However I have seen it suggested that in fact JRRT was taking a pot shot a the Bard because he though the way the Macbeth prophecy is sidestepped was weak/silly

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I have heard the same hypothesis regarding the Ents.

Of course, the encounter with Earnur was relatively recent, and the Witch-King may have heard Glorfindel telling it.