Tolkien General Discussion II

[athanaric]

Or he could be using the bow to shoot spears. That way, you'll have all three weapons in one unit.

[Ngugi]

Or he could be using the bow to shoot spears. That way, you'll have all three weapons in one unit.

Or a hand held ballista?
Or why restrict oneself to that? I give you...





Now, on topic, whatever the British did or didn't, Tolkien did not know about it so it has no real impact on the matter



I jump topic to another impossible to answer but to me interesting question considering the Ring and Isildur.
Isildur failiure to destroy the One (and Elrond's and Círdan's failiure to toss him into the volcano haha; naa, then they presumably would been corrupted to just take it for themselves with such wickedness in hearts) is accused to be a weakness of Men?
And Hobbits are hardy compaired.
But Isildur had the Ring for 2 years, and while he's discribed in a perhaps harsh tune he do not sound like a bloke that is aspiring to become the next Dark Lord, such speaking. Considering the Ring could summon Orcs to assult them at Gladden Fields it must have had decent power and capacity (if one would think it could be because it was less potent being just in the unusual situation of beiing separated from Sauron), yet it do not seems to have mroe control over isildur than that it managed to make him want to keep it 'in general'?
The only reasonable explanation to me seems to be Isildur must been one heck of an impressive person with selfcontrol far pass what the normal mortal posessed, other Númenóreans included?

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I should note that if I remember correctly, Elrond and Cirdan never brought him to Orodruin. From my reading of the Disaster of the Gladden Fields in UT and Appendices, it seems that Isildur was never fully corrupted by it. In fact I think it mentioned him regretting that decision and wanting to go to Imladris for Elrond's advice (Aside of course, for the long desired meeting between him,his wife and Valandil). And also, as for him being rather strong willed, the Ring probably had some of Sauron's powers of manipulation, right? If so, they would be the same methods that he and his family successfully resisted in Numenor.

[Ngugi]

Correct on all accounts, but that is enhancing my confusion on the matter.
The Ring seems to work trough desires, the lesser desires the more resistance against the Ring. Gandalf, Elrond etc are afraid to hold it because trough their will to do good they would fall to it, Galadriel resist her tempteation to have it to gain power and Boromir fall to the temptation to get it as a weapon/the power save his people, a desire Faramir in clear words reject; and that is my assumption to why Hobbits who most want peace and all the cozy living they already have is hard to affect and Bombadil who don't want anything beside what he aleady have within his chosen realm is totally unaffected.
Perhaps Isildur was a very moderate and complacent fellow, but the Ring apperently was at work from start, looking at how Frodo failed I just consider it wierd Isildur did not became worse than he was hehe

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Maybe he didn't have particularly greater desires than settling down?

[Duke of Metz]

Why was Isildur heading up the Anduin anyways? Taking the North-South Road through the Gap of Rohan sure seems to be the more logical return trip for Isildur and co.

Perhaps another reason for the ring's lack of power over Isildur is the lack of a threat. At the end of the Third Age Gandalf, Elrond, Boromir, etc. are all faced with the destruction of their world by Sauron, thus creating the desire to use the ring to prevent that. When Isildur claims the ring as his own, there is no threat upon the world. Isildur has just vanquished the personification of evil; a feat on par with Turin and the heroes of the First Age, there is nothing that would compel him to use or be corrupted by the ring.

Another interesting suggestion is that the power of the ring is congruent to Sauron's power. In LOTR we are told that the ring can sense Sauron and wants to return to him, waiting until it's master has returned to reveal itself. One could then make the argument that when Isildur claimed the ring, the ring's power would've been at it's weakest since Sauron had just been vanquished.

[Ngugi]

He was going to Imladris to meet his wife and youngest son (and daughters?)

Interesting thought, though we should remember Smeagol, him it corrupted very fast, made worse by his murder that was only partly the Ring's doing, Smeagol was no saint to begin with, compair with Bilbo's actions for example. And then theer was no threats to either, or rather, Bilbo was in a greater personal peril than any other who got the Ring, or could liek Gandalf or Elrond, and should had fallen faster than Smeagol, but did not.

Yes, but then again we have the fact that it could summon the Orcs against Isildur's company, which somehow ought to be a more difficult task than affecting the guy you're hanging around the neck?
Possibly it could be so that he seldom wore it, and thus could avoid being as manipulated? It was hot still, wierd as it sounds, still I guess. Do not take ito account Boromir's corruption however

Suddenly as the sun plunged into cloud they heard the hideous cries of Orcs, and saw them issuing from the Forest and moving down the slopes, yelling their war-cries. ... A shadow of foreboding fell upon [Isidlur's] heart."The vengeance of Sauron lives on, though he may be dead”, he said to Elendur, who stood beside him. "There is cunning and design here!"
...

Maybe he believed that after their costly repulse they would give way, though their scouts might follow him during the night and watch his camp. That was the manner of Orcs, who were most often dismayed when their prey could turn and bite.
But he was mistaken. There was not only cunning in the attack, but fierce and relentless hatred. The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dûr, sent out long before to watch the passes, and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to all his servants for their aid.
...

"King's son," said Isildur, "I knew that I must do so; but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me, and my pride that has brought you to this doom." 24 Elendur kissed him. "Go! Go now!" he said.
Isildur turned west, and drawing up the Ring that hung in a wallet from a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger with a cry of pain, and was never seen again by any eye upon Middle-earth.


Notes
24 The pride that led him to keep the Ring against the counsel of Elrond and Círdan that it should be destroyed in the fires of Orodruin

Could also be so that the Ring did only want to get away from Isildur, while the the feelings it had invoked in him (pride and greed to keep the Ring) now was a problem and it wanted away from him, to fall into a servant of Sauron's hand so it could be brought East.
Thinking of it is a lighter version of the failiure with Gollum who was useless at end but never lost the desire till it caused their doom, and it becomes reasonable that teh Ring did not influenced Isildur more if it did want to get away from him, not dominate him; just as it betrayed him till his death.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Didn't he keep the Ring in a box?

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Didn't he keep the Ring in a box?

[knight of meh]

and i thought Ngugi told us earlier that Sauron had ordered the orcs to gather there to capture any retreating elves but once they came back victorious there were too many elves to ambush so they waited ad just happened across the men

[Duke of Metz]

and i thought Ngugi told us earlier that Sauron had ordered the orcs to gather there to capture any retreating elves but once they came back victorious there were too many elves to ambush so they waited ad just happened across the men

Yes, Isildur and co. were attacked by a raiding party that had been ordered there by Sauron before his downfall. I even believe that the orcs participating in the raid did not even know that Sauron had been defeated. However, the quote above clearly states that the orcs were at least in some way driven by the ring in their attack. As it mentions, orcs would've normally retreated once met by the counterattack, but we are led to believe that they continued the attack due to the power of the ring.

[Ngugi]

Didn't he keep the Ring in a box?

Well, both;

Isildur turned west, and drawing up the Ring that hung in a wallet from a fine chain about his neck, he set it upon his finger with a cry of pain, and was never seen again by any eye upon Middle-earth.

and i thought Ngugi told us earlier that Sauron had ordered the orcs to gather there to capture any retreating elves but once they came back victorious there were too many elves to ambush so they waited ad just happened across the men

Correct;

The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dûr, sent out long before to watch the passes, and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to all his servants for their aid.

[Zimmy]

What happened to Maglor? I loaned my copy of The Silmarillion to a friend and cannot for the life of me remember what happened. I don't believe he sunk with Beleriand, because I think he was roaming around somewhere, but where, if Beleriand was gone?

[Ngugi]

Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and' the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more.
...
And it is told of Maglor that he could not endure the pain with which the Silmaril tormented him; and he cast it at last into the Sea, and thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves. For Maglor was mighty among the singers of old, named only after Daeron of Doriath; but he came never back among the people of the Elves.
- Silmarillion

He did not drown and he wander/wandered the shores of the rest of Middle-earth

[Moemoeng]

I have a question: how is it that most of the elves (in the movie perhaps the most for Galadhrim and Mirkwood Elves) have blond hair? Both Noldor and Teleri mostly have Dark hair, only the Vanyar had blond hair and they remained in Valinor. The Laiquendi (also Nandor) and Calaquendi also had mostly dark hair. So howcome that the majority of the elves of Lorinand and Erin Galen had blond hair? My information comes from Tolkien Gateway (don't know how reliable that source is, but I heard it has a good reputation). Did the Vanyar mingle alot with the other clans?
Actually my most important question is: what haircolor has the majority of the Elves in the First, Second and Third Age? (dipendent on the different Elf clans and realms).

Sorry for troubling you guys

[Ngugi]

Tolkien Gateway is decent, though now and then it get it wrong hehe
Among Nelyar, the Elven Clan that split up into [half of the] Avari and into Teleri, only a few were blond. The great majority of Sindar, nandor and Silvans were dark haired just as Tatyar [Noldor].
Exceptions are found, the kin of Thingol were white haired [such as Círdan and Celeborn] and Thranduil was blond.

The choise to make the Sindar-Silvans blond in the movie is presumably to create contrast between them and the High Elves we get to know, and because they went with a blond Legolas (reasonable due to his father even if his hair colour to my knowledge is never stated) and a white haired Celeborn (which he was) - not correct thus but IMO an insignificant flaw reasonable from a visual standpoint.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I don't know about you, but most Elves in the movies looked like snobbish homosexuals. (No offense)

[Flinn]

coming from the other related tread, my question:

is there any direct reference to Orc females in Tolkien writings?

curiuos about this point

thanks

[Ngugi]

No, not in any stories or drafts: the only clear mention of Orc women at all [AFAIK] is this:

There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known.

[jthewonder]

In the Two Towers we see Uruks being spawned in some sort of mudpit, couldn't the same thing be the case with orcs ?

My lore knowledge comes from reading the books 5-6 years ago, the movies and whatever i 've been able to pick up from people on this forum, so i could very well be completely wrong here