Tolkien General Discussion II

[Poosticks7]

Ah thanks. I couldn't remember. I suppose I could have just looked in the books, (was being lazy).

[Tankbustaz]

Where do you read that?

"Even as the Nazgul had swerved aside from the onset of the White Rider, there came flying a deadly dart, and Faramir, as he held at bay a mounted Champion of Harad, had fallen to the earth. Only the Charge of Dol Amroth had saved him from the red southland swords that would have hewed him as he lay."

The siege of Gondor, RotK

[Ngugi]

Yeah, I know many instances where it is stated he fights, I jus twondered where it was stated what he fought with; this quote, as others, do not tell us that.

The only weapon we can conclude is a sword, but that seems to be a standard Ranger side arm the only time his gear is discussed [last side's quotes].
And he had either a spear of a bow beside that, but which one can not be concluded.

Weither he fought only with
a sword
or a sword + bow
or a sword + spear
or even a sword + bow + spear we lack information on; but any of these are equally credible.

[Tankbustaz]

He probably doesn't use a bow during the retreat from Osgiliath as he left his rangers there to try and reinforce that place, also he rides with the Gondorian cavalry which function more as heavy cavalry than skirmishers, AFAIK the only horse archers mentioned are from Rohan, so it won't be too far fetched to believe that he doesn't use his bow/arrow if he ever had one. Also, will the spear be used like a Halberd if you don't have a shield to go along with it?

[Ngugi]

That's absolutly free to belive, just as I belive he had a bow hehe.
I simply make clear the fact that we can only know he had a sword and another weapon, and that Tolkien do not tell us what that weapon is.
Any guess, or as said even that he had all three, are equally credible - but no one can be right on the matter.

[knight of meh]

just because a person doesn't use a bow on horseback wearing heavy plate armour doesn't mean he wasn't an archer , the English longbowman in the 100 years war often went on horseback to keep up with other mobile troops but nearly never used there longbows from horseback because it is a feat of balance and aim to actually shoot an arrow properly from horseback

[Tankbustaz]

That's absolutly free to belive, just as I belive he had a bow hehe.
I simply make clear the fact that we can only know he had a sword and another weapon, and that Tolkien do not tell us what that weapon is.
Any guess, or as said even that he had all three, are equally credible - but no one can be right on the matter.

Cannot argue with that. Guess the Faramir I imagined while reading had three of them, then I decided it was too stupid, either way, my point was that when there is sufficient ambiguity about Faramir actually using said weapon why would it become such a Lore staple. Even Sierra added it to their Faramir, and their game was based on the books.

[knight of meh]

why is it a staple? because he is the commander of the rangers ... rangers (except in the modern error) were scouts and skirmishers so it's a given they used ranged weapons as

A)they didn't want to be detected
B)they wanted to assure an easy retreat , the whole point of there mission was to warn the main army of enemy movements

[Infidel144]

Also, will the spear be used like a Halberd if you don't have a shield to go along with it?

What do you mean by "like a Halberd"?

Any guess, or as said even that he had all three, are equally credible y guess, or as said even that he had all three, are equally credible

That being how the Grey Company (and at least some among the Noldor) were armed.
Which leads to a question. Is there a way to enact a three weapon-armed unit in Total War?

[Ngugi]

No, a unit can only be coded to have two weapons; a primary and a secondary
Also there's issues when a unit have melee weapon as both primary and secondary. Individuals in units (if not the entire unit?) tend to try to change what weapon to use during combat meaning that while they change between, say, sword and spear their enemy is hacking them to pieces haha
Possible but unappealing could be to make the secondary weapon [stats] to look like the soldiers carry both swords and spears at the same time [graphics; either swords or spear will thus be "fake" as the code is only one of them].
However the animations would be either spear or sword [due to stats] making it look odd, and the stats would still be the same meaning the [graphic] weapons would not work proper [in stats]

The only good solution would be two units, one unit with bows + swords and another with bows + spears.
Potentially there could be created a javelins + swords unit, but the description do not sound as a spear intended to be thrown to my knowledge, due to the broad spearhead.

[Infidel144]

That is a shame, would be neat to have some accurately represented elite units such as the aforementioned Noldor, or the Grey Company.

Also there's issues when a unit have melee weapon as both primary and secondary. Individuals in units (if not the entire unit?) tend to try to change what weapon to use during combat meaning that while they change between, say, sword and spear their enemy is hacking them to pieces haha

Does cavalry that has secondary melee weapons (lance and sword) have that problem as well, and I just have not noticed? Come to think of it, I'm not sure I have ever tried switching between weapons in battle.

[Ngugi]

Not what I ever heard about. Only obvious reason I can guess is because they are coded as category cavalry and not as category infantry, which has other impacts naturally on stats and AI behaviour etc., so it's nothing that ought to be possibly to 'salvage' from the mounted soldiers to the footsoldiers

[Tankbustaz]

What do you mean by "like a Halberd"?

I meant that it could be used as a more versatile wapon if it were held with 2 hands instead of a stabbing weapon with 1 hand when you have a shield


That being how the Grey Company (and at least some among the Noldor) were armed.
Which leads to a question. Is there a way to enact a three weapon-armed unit in Total War?[/QUOTE]

[knight of meh]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post12698774

scroll back up or click that link and read... not n med 2 is the short answer

[Infidel144]

I meant that it could be used as a more versatile wapon if it were held with 2 hands instead of a stabbing weapon with 1 hand when you have a shield

I see. IRL, not like a halberd, as the halberd has the axe head, and back spike. The spear head could do some light harrassing cuts, against unarmoured parts, but nothing resembling the powerful chopping action of the halberd. A more apt compaison would be, it could be used similarly to a quarterstaff (just with a sharp pointy bit on the end).

[Thangaror]

A while ago I read an article on spear usage by britonish tribes and the fractures they found on bones actually assumed that the ancient Britons tended to whirl the spears above their heads to deliver quite devastating cuts.

[Infidel144]

Do you recall what/where that article was? Whirling a spear about the head would lead to the opponent stabbing you with his. Causing fractures sounds more like getting a butt stroke or struck hard with the shaft. Off hand I do not recall any of historical masters showing such a thing in the available treatises.

[conon394]

A while ago I read an article on spear usage by britonish tribes and the fractures they found on bones actually assumed that the ancient Britons tended to whirl the spears above their heads to deliver quite devastating cuts.

Sounds like they watch too much TV

I would agree that used with two hands an spear could be used to slash a mostly unarmored opponent but against anyone with even rudimentary protection it strikes me not the best option - There is a reason afterall why people invented halberds

[Thangaror]

No one said anything about TV, conon.
Also, especially in ancient Britain and Germany, armour was not very wide spread. Fractures was maybe not the right word. I meant the damage that was obviously dealt to the bones.

If I remember correctly, I read the article in "Der Spiegel", Germany's most important news magazine, where they referred to some archaeological study.

[Cyclops]

Spears used as slashing clubs? It doesn't sound that plausible, be good to see a source...of course lances can do amazing impact damage in the right circumstances, but there's absolutely no suggestion of ancient Britons using couched spears from horseback or chariot or suchlike. Anyway we're getting way OT again...

...
or even a sword + bow + spear ...

Suddenly I'm imagining Faramir as Roronoa Zoro weilding all three at once. We need a manga Legend of the Ring by studio Ghibli!