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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #1081
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I wonder if Malbeth's prophecy actually still applied post-destruction of Arthedain.
    Though I doubt Arvedui would've still been alive when Earnur perished, judging by the Dunedain's decline of lifespan, he probably would've been dead for a good 10 years by 2050. And the prophecy applied directly to him and not to his sons.
    Arvedui died with his kingdom (Arthedain) in TA 1974/75

    Eärnur the son of Eärnil II died in TA 2050 so the problem is Aranarth did not reconstitute Arnor or Arthedain. In fact the Northern Dúnedain seem to have chosen to taken a under cover road so lacking a Kingdom or even an existence he was hardly in a position to renew a claim that had been rejected.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #1082
    Kiliç Alì's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Hello there, long time lurker, first time poster, I have a question that has been bothering me for sometime,The various armies of ME, what are their closest real world counterparts?
    Hello and welcome to the forum

    If you mean to univocally link the several states\armies of ME to the real world ones, I think it is impossible (and also world-wide over-debeated) to be done, in both a military or political way (like, saying the orcs were nazis or the gondorians bizantines), tought Tolk' may have taken inspiration from several historically attested armies\styles.

    Howewer from a pretty personal point of view, here a couple of my toughts:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    *
    This is more movie-wise than lore or book-wise, I know, but feh! I loved Peter Jackson's work here


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




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  3. #1083

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiliç Alì View Post
    Hello and welcome to the forum

    If you mean to univocally link the several states\armies of ME to the real world ones, I think it is impossible (and also world-wide over-debeated) to be done, in both a military or political way (like, saying the orcs were nazis or the gondorians bizantines), tought Tolk' may have taken inspiration from several historically attested armies\styles.

    Howewer from a pretty personal point of view, here a couple of my toughts:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    *
    This is more movie-wise than lore or book-wise, I know, but feh! I loved Peter Jackson's work here


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    LMAO

  4. #1084

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankbustaz View Post
    Hello there, long time lurker, first time poster, I have a question that has been bothering me for sometime,The various armies of ME, what are their closest real world counterparts?
    Gondor - not quite sure, maybe a mix of ancient Rome (including Byzantine period) and the Holy Roman Empire. Maybe some other Medieval influences, like Italian?
    Rohan - Anglo-Saxons (especially Mercia) plus Goths. This is actually supported by evidence from Tolkien's correspondence, I think.
    Orcs - generally, bad people.

  5. #1085

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Maybe someone can shed some light on this for me.

    The Valar tangled with Melkor/Morgoth several times before the War of Wrath - and each time they wipe him out. The Battle of the Powers is a great example: it was just the host of the Valar and Maiar, and casualties were apparently light. This was when Melkor was near the peak of his powers, and Utumno was unquestionably the most powerful fortress in the history of Arda.

    So why does Morgoth give the Host of the Valar such trouble during the War of Wrath? This time, the Ainur are accompanied by most of the Eldar and Edain, and Morgoth was weaker than he'd ever been. And yet, some sources describe the Host fighting over the Sirion for 40 years, and the Host is apparently almost completely wiped out by the dragons.

    Is there a huge detail I'm missing? I don't have access to my Tolkien writings at the moment.

  6. #1086

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Goes to show you one Vala, even the most powerful, can't make up for the entirety of them.

    Melkor was indeed beaten numerous times (though I wouldn't call Valar casualties 'light', definitely not in the War of Wrath), and I think it's just chance that the War of Wrath went differently then previous ones. Whether it was that there was underestimation/ineptitude early on among the Valar, or due to Melkor and his forces fighting so fiercely (he was at the bottom of his power, but he had still been the mightiest of the Valar, and was still a potent foe), it's just not known. The only thing made clear is the turning point of the battle after some time was when Melkor unleashed the dragons. The Valar never encountered them before and they were immensely powerful, so they inflicted tremendous losses on them. They initially overwhelmed the Valar until they regrouped, counter-attacked, and overwhelmed the dragons.

    Besides that, to the best of my knowledge no reason is ever really laid out as to why it was such a devastating battle for the Valar, only that it just went that way. It seems like several battles went that way, both sides had some great victories, then right after had terrible losses, or costly victories. Personally, I would say the unbalance towards Melkor is more due to the quality of his troops. Orcs and Trolls were not nearly as good of troops as the Valar had, and there weren't enough Balrogs, Dragons, and other creatures of Melkor to make up for the difference.
    Last edited by RuleBritannia; March 16, 2013 at 12:36 AM.

  7. #1087
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    For the longest time (we may speak all about ten of thousands to million years) Melkor alone defeated all his opponents, it is once Tulkas enter the scale is tipped and even then the Valar are very scared of him.When they start the War of the Powers they do not expect to win, at best they presumably hoped to have him leave Earth for a while, the most alike a victory they so far had managed [undeline especially interetsing parts as is my custom]:
    Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature ... the greatest power under Eru... Later, he must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined. Note that in the early age of Arda he was alone able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat.
    The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence. But Melkor had already progressed some way toward becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents'.

    Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be ... temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a power-level with the Valar. The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So they come at last to Utumno itself and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact.
    Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.


    - HoME 10; Myth's Transformed; VI
    During the Battle of the Powers we no reason to assume casualties were light, even if the first field battle was decisive, Tolkien tell us another tale:
    Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But the first victory of the hosts of the West was swift, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar passed over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Cuiviénen; and thereafter the Quendi knew nothing of the great Battle of the Powers, save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved, and in the north there were lights as of mighty fires.

    Long and grievous was the siege of Utumno, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Elves.
    In that time the shape of Middle-earth was changed, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep; and it broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward. Many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcaraxë far in the north, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion, and the mountains about Hithlum. The lands of the far north were all made desolate in those days; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.


    - Silmarillion; Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
    The War of Wrath later on took 42 years (the description in Silmarillion unfortunatly always make it sound like a walk in the park) and while Melkor had no Orcs or Dragons during the Battle of the Powers he had more Maiar, nor did the Valar had Elven forces, and that war took 6 Year of the Trees I've read, being 55 years of the sun before the Valar could claim victory.

    Morgoth's Maiar, beasts and mortal forces are apperently sufficent to hold off the Host of the West in the last war and there's different possible reasons to why, who may be combined as well;
    - Morgoth had a quantity of forces not possible to simply crush; to affect the physical world Valar/Maiar take physichal form and such is obviously susceptible to at least pain
    - the losses of Maiar, Maiar aligned to combat at least, durining earlier battles has been reduced so the Host of the West can be decently countered by Morgoth's forces
    - the valar knew they had to defeat the servants of Morgoth first to make him weaker, if he would been directly assulted before that Morgoth would still be great enough to present a mortal threat to the Host of the West (least so they must assumed)

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  8. #1088
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Gondor - not quite sure, maybe a mix of ancient Rome (including Byzantine period) and the Holy Roman Empire. Maybe some other Medieval influences, like Italian?
    Rohan - Anglo-Saxons (especially Mercia) plus Goths. This is actually supported by evidence from Tolkien's correspondence, I think.
    Orcs - generally, bad people.
    Gondor does have a bit of HRE influence, with Knights led by a Prince, and a wide variety of troop types drawn from a broad range of locations (some heavy axemen, some leaderless hillmen etc). The Guardsmen of Minas Tirith have a bit of a Byzantine feel to me, or perhaps Praetorian but Byzantium was marked by the use of HA types which Gondor lacks, as well as foreign mercenary corps (Varangians, Latinkoi etc) so its notreally an exact match as you say.

    Rohan is clearly Gothic, large cav contingent with explicit Germanic language and social organisation.

    Harad has a Moorish feel, dashing courageous horsemen waving glittering scimitars and Corsairs (a la Barbary Pirates) but also enormous elephants so also Karthaginian or Numidian?

    The Easterlings have a strong steppe flavour, horsemen and hordes and invasions from the east, as mentioned they use Gothic wagon-laager tactics. Somewhat Russian perhaps?

    The orcs use bows and scimitars (aside from Saruman's Uruk Hai withg their short straight swords) but this may be a cartoonish "bad guy" element rather than an indication that orcs are Asian or Islamic.

    Trolls use great clubs and hammers, and Dwarves use axes which look like Heroic age military conventions, Iron Age tribal warfare perhaps? In the Sil dwarves use massed formations and missile weapons so they seem to have some organised military system, maybe not Roman buut Thrakian or Keltic? Likewise the men of Dale are bowmen and swordsmen without a clear military heritage beyong some vague ancient/medieval feel.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Harad has a Moorish feel, dashing courageous horsemen waving glittering scimitars and Corsairs (a la Barbary Pirates) but also enormous elephants so also Karthaginian or Numidian?
    Enormous elephants == Indians

    Pygmy Elephants == Carthaginian

    They didn't use the elephants that are seen on TV in documentaries, they used pygmy elephants which eventually got extinct.

  10. #1090
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankbustaz View Post
    Enormous elephants == Indians

    Pygmy Elephants == Carthaginian

    They didn't use the elephants that are seen on TV in documentaries, they used pygmy elephants which eventually got extinct.
    Thanks, but I don't see too much Indian in the Haradrim, and no-one uses Mumaks, I'm suggesting the use of elephant types points to Numidian or Karthaginian influences.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  11. #1091
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I think the Black Numenoreans have a strong Punic feel.
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  12. #1092

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I think people here would like this site
    http://www.theonering.net/torwp/


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  13. #1093

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    ... but Byzantium was marked by ... foreign mercenary corps (Varangians, Latinkoi etc) ...
    well, it is not entirely true that Gondor lacks this aspect.
    comparable are maybe
    1) Rohan
    2) Rhovannion
    if they can be seen as strickt foederati or loose client kingdoms or independant allies should be left open (I think it changes through "history" - but that's the same with the [eastern] Roman Empire)

    but the fact that hits the point:
    ... its notreally an exact match ...

    what I have to add though:
    Gondor has many partallels with Rome (and it'S successors):

    ancient Númenor <=> ancient Rome
    [the basic culture, heritage on which the state is build on | military power | colonies | hubris and fall (ok the fall is Atlantis-style)]

    successors Gondor (and Arnor) <=> successors Holy Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire
    [different to the ancient culture but still keep large elements of it | keep knowledge of history | organization of military | one of them manages to stay and one of them falls (Byzantium) - though I don't want to state that Arnor is clearly BE and Gondor clearly HRE]



    ah and another analogy I found:
    (attention, this is not medieval!)

    Great Briton and the USA

    motherland with colonies, and two of theese colonies later form a (kind of) union.

  14. #1094
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by mondpeiler View Post
    Gondor has many partallels with Rome (and it'S successors):

    ancient Númenor <=> ancient Rome
    [the basic culture, heritage on which the state is build on | military power | colonies | hubris and fall (ok the fall is Atlantis-style)]

    successors Gondor (and Arnor) <=> successors Holy Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire
    the holy roman empire was a successor to the Frankish empire not roman

    and the reason gondor and the byzantines have a military power as a base is the same ...they are both feudal societies and there is a seemingly evil guy across the river who wants to kick there butt doesn't mean they were related

  15. #1095
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Ahem. The Holy Roman Empire was rightfully summed as neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. A more direct analogue to Arnor would be the Western Roman Empire.

    And there is more than one thing common to Gondor and Medieval Rome (I don't like calling it by the ahistorical name of Byzantium). They were both successor states to a greater realm, who for a time enjoyed a great bloom under competent soldier-rulers (Basileios II and Romendacil and Hyarmendacil come to mind) but later fell into eventually ruinous decadence under incompetent rulers.

    There was also a short period of regained strength, after which however, everything collapsed against threats from the East and Civil Wars, until they were reduced into a smaller, much more feudal nation living on borrowed time. And of course, calling Medieval Rome feudal is a great misunderstanding of it's operation prior to the post-Macedonian Emperors.
    Last edited by Feanaro Curufinwe; March 20, 2013 at 06:05 AM.
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  16. #1096
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post

    And of course, calling Medieval Rome feudal is a great misunderstanding of it's operation prior to the post-Macedonian Emperors.
    my knowledge of this is after the senate stopped being important the territory was broadly divided into themes by the emperor and the "strategos"/rulers of the themes (i think that's right) ... were responsible for administration and to a lesser extent the military within there theme

    that does sound feudal to me ... you get control of this land in return for service or labour rendered

    i could be mistaken though never really studied that part of history
    Last edited by knight of meh; March 20, 2013 at 06:24 AM. Reason: typos

  17. #1097
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The Στρατηγοι seemed to be more like governors. The troops from the Θεματα were mostly soldiers which owned farming estates given to them by the state, and which were called to action during invasions as levies before the intervention of the professional Ταγματα. True feudalism came from the post-Macedonian Emperors which after disbanding the Θεματα were forced to resort to the Δυνατοι and their private armies. The Θεματα were closer to the Roman Provinces.
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  18. #1098
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I don't like calling it by the ahistorical name of Byzantium
    How is it any more ahistorical than a hundred other convenient labels that are I suppose technically incorrect in History? They all dead you know so they cannot be offended and its easier to understand the reference when you use the most common title. Byzantium Empire might not be accurate but neither is Peloponnesian league or Second Athenian Empire or using Empire to refer to the late Republic etc but its kind of pointless to object by now.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #1099
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    It is ahistorical. They never called themselves that, and neither did anyone at their time call them that. I prefer using proper terminology as opposed to convenient, except when having no other choice. And of course the reason they call it ''Byzantine", still escapes me. Is it because it was founded on the ruins of the completely unrelated earlier colony of Byzantium? That particular city was completely unrelated to Medieval Rome.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
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  20. #1100
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I prefer using proper terminology as opposed to convenient
    So of course you also refer to the Long War of Sparta and those bound to follow it on land and sea and many other allies who saw opportunity vs Athens? The Point was they called themselves is a bit irrelevant and sort of just as silly and Byzantium, but when you refer to the Byzantine Empire people more or less know what you are talking about. What do you call the classical Persian Empire?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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