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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #1061
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    To my mind Sauron's will is the key ingredient with able commanders more tools than independent agents.
    Well its also fair to say that will or no, things will have looked very bad to the men on the ground by the time Aragorn showed up.

    If you think about the attack on Gondor had Four elements:

    An army to take Cair Andros and block the road to Rohan
    An army to assault City
    A reserve force for the assault army
    A large naval attack on the South - pinning down more or less all Gondor reserves.

    From the grunt/junior officer's view when Aragorn shows up it would seem likely they would assume or know:

    The Assault force was more or less shattered (given the description of how reckless it was used and suffered in the Rohan attack).
    The appearance of Rohan would suggest the blocking army had been sweep away
    The appearance of the ships means the South is fine and in fact Gondor is reinforced with ex-slaves and controls the river.

    Conduit or not, sun or not that's a large sting of defeats to hold your army to gather over and a Nazgul was killed that just by itself will have shaken moral it seems to me.

    Perhaps the most odd element is that the Southern Men did not surrender. In the past Gondor will have had much contact with them (and Numenor before) and it seems doubtful Gondor's rule was all that harsh such that they would not take a stab at yielding and mercy. I can see the men of the East who might know nothing but what Sauron says... but the South will have seen Sauron loose more than a few times.
    Last edited by conon394; March 14, 2013 at 07:07 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  2. #1062
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Orcs are worthless whin it comes to morale in disadvantages:
    [Islidur] gave orders to resume the march at once, but to bend their course down towards the lower and flat­ter ground where the Orcs would have less advantage. Maybe he believed that after their costly repulse they would give way, though their scouts might follow him during the night and watch his camp. That was the manner of Orcs, who were most often dismayed when their prey could turn and bite.
    - UT; The Disaster of the Gladden Fields

    When Sauorn realise Frodo is in Mt Doom this happends:
    For [Sauron] knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung.
    From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wingsthey hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.
    - RotK; Mount Doom
    But only Orcs and beasts seems controlled by Sauron's will, reading about the end of the Battle at the Black Gate:
    The Captains bowed their heads; and when they looked up again, behold! their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind.
    As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.

    But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West. And those that were deepest and longest in evil servitude, hating the West, and yet were men proud and bold, in their turn now gathered themselves for a last stand of desperate battle. But the most part fled eastward as they could; and some cast their weapons down and sued for mercy.
    - RotK; The Field of Cormallen
    (the mind control is directly tied to the complicated matter of "What is an Orc?" that Tolkien never came to conclude, but LotR is canon for JRR himself so we know this apply.)


    To what degree we shall assume this apply to the war of Gondor I am not sure.
    Last edited by Ngugi; March 14, 2013 at 08:41 AM.

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  3. #1063
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiliç Alì View Post
    I disagree with this vision, the battle strategy were discussed before the battle so both the Leader and the second-in-charge and all the subordinate commanders knew how the battle was supposed to be fought by their side. In a real army, the chain of command was well defined before the battle, whould be stupid not to do so. Now, it is true that usually armies fleed when their supreme leader, wich also happened to be their king, were killed in battle, but there are also other factors to be considered.
    Indeed, but here we have some extraordinary elements, namely that the supreme commander is immortal and has magic abilities and a flying mount.
    I suspect that Sauron and the Witchking had no "Plan B" (which is quite normal for them, haha).

    So, I assume there wasn't really a second in command. Gothmog most probably was ordered to command the movements of the reinforcements and was stationed somewhere at the Rammas and Osgiliath and was never actually meant to take command over the complete host.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  4. #1064

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I can't imagine that Sauron wouldn't have a "plan b"...
    he may be arrogant and overestimating, but he'S not a fool.

    but sticking to the facts, a plan b - if existing - didn't work.

    I'm not quite sure if Gothmog really was second in command!?
    perhaps it's because I'm not a native english speaker, but I for instance can't really classify his rank: (chief) lieutenant of Minas Morgul
    the "chief" may be high
    but the "lieutenant"? (in Germany a "Leutnant" is the lowest rank of the officers - so nothing special/never second in command of a whole army).

    so maybe he was the only one who reacted in this situation... never meant to be one of the leaders.

    but maybe I only get his title wrong - is it higher in the english military?

  5. #1065
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Sauron was a lieutenant of Morgoth and was the second in command.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
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  6. #1066
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    in my reading tolkien was using lieutenant in it's actual meaning not it's military meaning and it's actual meaning is "in place* of tenant" so you assume command in place of the tenant/commander who is absent in other words you are second in command

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant#Etymology

    interesting that the hebrew translation means "second to"

    *lieu is french and it means "place" so i translated it, therefore in lieu of means in place of in this context

    i left tenant alone because that appears in english

    i think this is in the wikipedia entry but i am not sure

    anyway sorry for turning this into an etymology class
    Last edited by knight of meh; March 14, 2013 at 12:19 PM.

  7. #1067
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Lieutenant is a title always tied to a specific place in Tolkien's works, not a general hierercial position within the 'dark side organization', and there are multiple at the same time.
    That stronghold was commanded by Sauron, lieutenant of Melkor; and it was named Angband.
    - Silmarillion

    He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray;
    - RotK

    Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger.
    - UT

    The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: ‘I am the Mouth of Sauron. (...)

    'But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have want only destroyed, and that shall be Sauron’s, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.’
    - RotK
    In difference to captain that is used in stead of General or other high officers, both for the evil and good folks;
    That was the last time in those wars that [Morgoth] passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains;
    (...)

    But now in the western battle Fingon and Turgon were assailed by a tide of foes thrice greater than all the force that was left to them. Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, was come; and he drove a dark wedge between the Elvenhosts...
    - Silmarillion

    But the Lord of the City was master of his Council, and he was in no mood that day to bow to others. Early in the morning the Council had been summoned. There all the captains judged that because of the threat in the South their force was too weak to make any stroke of war on their own part, unless perchance the Riders of Rohan yet should come.
    (...)

    It was night again ere news came. A man rode in haste from the fords, saying that a host had issued from Minas Morgul and was already drawing nigh to Osgiliath; and it had been joined by regiments from the South, Haradrim, cruel and tall. ‘And we have learned ‘ said the messenger, ‘that the Black Captain leads them once again, and the fear of him has passed before him over the River.’
    (...)

    ‘Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dûr the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls,’ said Gandalf. ‘King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.’
    ‘Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,’ said Denethor. ‘For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. '
    - RotK

    ‘It is well,’ said Théoden. ‘I will ride now to the Hold, and there before I go to rest I will meet the marshals and captains. Let them come to me as soon as may be!’
    - RotK

    'That will be the Captain: he can master both beasts and men. ’
    - Beregond about Faramir, RotK

    Alone of the messengers Mablung, chief captain of the King, escaped, and he brought the dread tidings to Thingol.
    (...)
    Then the hearts of the Noldor grew hot, and their captains wished to assail their foes upon the plain;
    - Silmarillion
    Who is higher in command among them seems individual, as Sauron the lieutenant is higher in command than High-captain Gothmog the Balrog while the captain Witch-king is higher in command than any lieutenant at the same time.


    There is perhaps one exception from the stronghold-connection of the Lieutenants (the only time it's used for good peoples I think), though it may be read in the same manner - as a geographical commanding area:
    Marshal of the Mark (or Riddermark) was the highest military rank and the title of the King's lieutenants (originally three), commanders of the royal forces of fully equipped and trained Riders. The First Marshal's ward was the capital, Edoras, and the adjacent King's Lands (including Harrowdale). He commanded the Riders of the Muster of Edoras, drawn from this ward, and from some parts of the West-mark and East-mark for which Edoras was the most convenient place of assembly. The Second and Third Marshals were assigned commands according to the needs of the time.
    - UT
    Last edited by Ngugi; March 14, 2013 at 01:20 PM.

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  8. #1068
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    adding to ngugi's post and in response to mondpeiler there is historical precedent for this behaviour

    in the beginning of medieval history armies would either be on the march, involved in a siege or ,holding a home base that is why lieutenants became related to a place because the supplies were there that's were the commander and the army would stay long term.

    lieutenants started to move down the military rankings for two reasons :
    1)armies got larger so a more complicated officer hierarchy was needed (and they added to the top)
    2)main armies became field armies with the advent of gunpowder so strongholds became less important

  9. #1069
    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    why would you have a plan b if you have sent your entire force of 600,000 orcs, 1400 trolls, mumakil, corsairs, the 9, the witchking and grond a living breathing battling ram n your side, i mean its pretty much the same as opening the console and typing auto_win attacker. plus the nature of sauron is to underestimate as are all the classic bady's kryptonite.

    got a hypothetical question. what if Denethor had not stepped down(had he lived) after the return of aragorn. He was pretty much the king in his own right and its unlikly that in rl most of the gondor army would have liked for him to step down to as he puts it "a ranger from the north". I mean Aragorn is like 23rd heir of isilidor so to say the same blood runs in my veins is being a little overzealous

  10. #1070
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    well the return of the king was prophesied and the stewerd were sworn to step down on his return iirc

    also the witchking was the leader of the 9

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    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    got a hypothetical question. what if Denethor had not stepped down(had he lived) after the return of aragorn. He was pretty much the king in his own right and its unlikly that in rl most of the gondor army would have liked for him to step down to as he puts it "a ranger from the north". I mean Aragorn is like 23rd heir of isilidor so to say the same blood runs in my veins is being a little overzealous
    They indeed had sworn:
    Each new Steward indeed took office with the oath 'to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return.
    - Appendix A
    But it's not as easily as to say that any heir of Elendil is a legal posessor of the throne of Gondor. They had not sworn to welcome a king from Isildur's line. The 'prophecy' was much folk tale stuff;
    Yet many in Gondor still believed that a king would indeed return in some time to come; and some remembered the ancient line of the North, which it wasrumoured still lived on in the shadows. But against such thoughts the Ruling Stewards hardened their hearts.
    - Appendix A
    Denethor would not stepped down, and rightly so according to the succession laws of Gondor.
    On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North-kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Fíriel, only surviving child of Ondoher. The claim was rejected. In this Pelendur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part.

    The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."

    To this Arvedui replied:
    "Elendil had two sons, of whom Isildur was the elder and the heir of his father. We have heard that the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the line of the Kings of Gondor, since he was accounted the high king of all the lands of the Dúnedain.
    While Elendil still lived, the conjoint rule in the South was committed to his sons; but when Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and committed the rule in the South in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever.
    "Moreover, in Númenor of old the sceptre descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we now refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless."

    To this Gondor made no answer. The crown was claimed by Eärnil, the victorious captain; and it was granted to him with the approval of all the Dúnedain in Gondor, since he was of the royal house. He was the son of Siriondil, son of Calimmacil, son of Arciryas brother of Narmacil II.

    Arvedui did not press his claim; for he had neither the power nor the will to oppose the choice of the Dúnedain of Gondor;

    - Appendix A
    As apperent it is the House of Anárion that the Dúnedain of the South accept to be the lords of Gondor, in opposition to Arvedui's argumentation.
    Further made clear in Denethor's words:
    ‘But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.’
    - RotK; The Pyre of Denethor
    It shall be noted that, in difference to the movie (IIRC), in the book Gandalf do not contest this right to reject Aragorn

    It is not even as easy to say that the Steward are not royal, instead as Isildur's line is not by itself acknowledged in the south then the Stewards trough maternal inheritance, which would be what Aragorn can claim as well, have equal rights to the legal rule:
    [Though] the Hurinionath were not in the direct line of descent from Elendil, they were ultimately of royal origin, and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages.
    - HoME 12; The Heirs of Elendil

    Personally I am completly on Denethor's side in the matter, while I accept the democratic choice of the people I judge it an active election, not a reclaimed right Aragorn had.

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  12. #1072
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Lieutenant is a title always tied to a specific place in Tolkien's works, not a general hierercial position within the 'dark side organization', and there are multiple at the same time.
    I think there's a double meaning: a lieutenant means (aside from the obvious military rank) representative of (literally "in place of" ie subordinate representing someone higher). So sidekick or minion, but yoiu're right they do seem to have a geographic tie in many cases.

    I sense that "Lieutenant of Melkor" and "Lieutenant of Sauron" (which MoS aspires to once WK is dead) suggests they are the number 2 man in the organisation, whereas "Lieutenant of (such-and-such a place)" means that he's just Sauron's man on the spot. Lieuenant of Barad Dur is interesting as he acts a s herald of Sauron, so he's more like a lackey than a captain: perhaps I'm wrong and he's a leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    In difference to captain that is used in stead of General or other high officers, both for the evil and good folks;
    Who is higher in command among them seems individual, as Sauron the lieutenant is higher in command than High-captain Gothmog the Balrog while the captain Witch-king is higher in command than any lieutenant at the same time.
    Its interesting teasing out the meanings. I'd suggest as Sauron is Morgoth's Lieutenant, he outranks Gothmog who is not Sauron's no.1 guy.

    A Captain is always a war leader, head of a host. I believe the term "Captains of the West" is also used when there are multiple famous commanders (IIRC its Aragorn, Imrahil and Eomer) when there's a combined host.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    There is perhaps one exception from the stronghold-connection of the Lieutenants (the only time it's used for good peoples I think), though it may be read in the same manner - as a geographical commanding area: [stuff about Marshals]
    So the three Marshals are lieutenants in that they are the Kings number 1, 2 and 3 guys in the Kingdom (and Theoden's first and second heirs are both Marshals) who have specific (and largely military I imagine) administrative areas (Heeresgruppe Mitte, Ost und West). Marshall has a military sense but comes from the Frankish meaning horse servant so is a suitable institution for the Gothic/Saxon/Volkswunderung style Rohirrim.
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  13. #1073
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Personally I am completly on Denethor's side in the matter
    I would have to differ here. Note Gondor has no answer for Arvendui's reply simply ignoring. I can ignore sound legal reasoning but that does not make valid...

    It is also true the situation was different than when Arvedui claimed the throne.

    "Now the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful of those near akin. Often those on whom suspicion fell had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Númenorean blood. So it was that no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow; and all feared the memory of the Kin-strife, knowing that if any such dissension arose again, then Gondor would perish. Therefore, though the years lengthened, the Steward continued to rule Gondor, and the crown of Elendil lay in the lap of King Eärnil in the Houses of the Dead, where Earnur had left it."

    So unlike the earlier time there was now nobody with a clear claim that could beat that of the Northern Line but in addition Aragorn had a hand full aces...

    First of course his fiance was the technically the niece of Elros and his potential father in law is Elros brother... that is some serious clout to walk into Gondor with if nothing else I really doubt any would say Elrond was not a valid witness that Argorn was the direct descendant of Isuildur and of Arvedui

    Second I would say Gondor established a new president in Eärnil's selection and Arvedui's acquiescence to it. Both of leaning toward victory in battle and allowing what amounts to defaulting to the 'vote' of the Dunedain of Gondor.

    Thus it seems to me Aragorn's claim was better than any other we could expect if nobody could or would raise a claim after Earnur a thousand years ago!

    So let's say Deneathor avoids going bat **** nuts.

    He realm exists only because of Aragorn. So Argorn has all of Arvedui's claims, and is victorious in battle and saved MT so he has one half of the Earnil precedent in the bag because w/o Aragon Denathor would be enjoying his new fun time play room as a guest with big S for...(ever)(or until he died or turned into some ghastly undead thing etc).

    Also the Dead... Isildur took that oath as a Ruler of Gondor. Argorn called it due and the dead followed. That kind of says his lordship is real in Gondor.

    Rohan:

    "'As for myself,' said Éomer, 'I have little knowledge of these deep matters; but I need it not. This I know, and it is enough, that as my friend Aragorn succoured me and my people, so I will aid him when he calls. I will go.'"

    The King of Rohan is Aragorn's friend

    All the South of Gondor knows they were saved by Aragorn and even the men in the North know the same...

    Even Denathor's own last son is either going to die (assuming Aragorn is shut out of the city) or oppose his father

    ... so really it seems to me Denathor would have to yield no matter how bitter he might find it at the moment.

    In any case Aragorn has the right under both the original argument of the North or the precident of Eärnil
    Last edited by conon394; March 14, 2013 at 04:31 PM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #1074
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @ Cyklops
    The only case when Sauron is called lieutenant is when he is said to be commander of Angband, just as Khamûl is only refered to lieutenant when in command of Dol Guldur and all other evil commanders are only refered to as lieutenant of a specific place as well.

    The WK is not called lieutenant (only Lord of Morgul), he is always titled captain and is naturally highest in command, and we have nothing to support the MoS becomes lieutenant of Barad-dûr only after the WK is dead.

    I see no other reasonable use of the word than as the commander of a specific place - unrelated to their favour or position within the realm in general, while they naturally wouldn't get such a position if not having a certain power and influence and favour to begin with.

    Even Saruman became one, if also for Godnor but showing Tolkien's use of teh word, when he took control of Orthanc:
    He acquired the keys of Orthanc in 2759, nominally as warden of the tower and lieutenant of the Stewards of Gondor.
    - UT
    In this way Saruman began to behave as a lord of Men; for at first he held Isengard as a lieutenant of the Steward and warden of the tower.
    - Appendix A

    @ conon394
    I may should rephrase myself; I do not disclaim that Aragorn had the best claim of anyone, but I put in serious doubt that Aragorn had rightfull claim by Gondor law to the throne - which are two different things.

    That the Gondorians are not responding to Arvedui may simply be that they consider him annoying as they have already presented their view-point, and that is that Gondor have two clear succession rules that:
    1) Only Meneldil's line have claim to the throne
    2) Only male heirs have claim to the throne

    1+2 = The throne pretender has to be a male decendant of Melendil's line

    Aragorn can not fill that, meaning that from a legal perspective he has no claim on the throne.
    And if Aragorn have not the right to the throne then there is no king and the legal ruler should remain the Steward.

    I can perfectly well see Aragorn getting the throne after the war, as he did, even if Denethor is in place, but if so not based on successional rights but based on a democratic election of him, on populare demand such speaking; everybody loves a war hero.
    And it would not happend with Denethor's willing assent.
    So I read such public backing, the folk who can over-rule the rules, as the only chance to present one of isildur's line as legit to the throne. The chieftains of the North knew they had not the rigth to the throne, or they could wandered down long ago, at least any single one of them, but no one did. It is not until Elrond given Aragorn the ultimatim he don't get Arwen without gaining the throne of Gondor (and other duties eccepted, of course) that anyone of the attempt to present themselves as a candidate.
    Last edited by Ngugi; March 14, 2013 at 06:00 PM.

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    I think both ngugi and conon has fair points...

    I think aragorn would have a good chance even if denethor was alive. Won the support of the people, the army, and wouldve won the support of faramir...
    Last edited by Ngugi; March 14, 2013 at 07:03 PM.

  16. #1076

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    As too the succession question, I think the fact that it seems clear, Faramir would have welcomed the King is important, Denethor's direct heir was willing even eager to bow to the Line to of Isildur, Rohan would clearly support the claim, as would Imrahil who immediately invited him into the city, granted Denethor is dead at the time but but Imrahil seems a lot like Faramir to me in this sort of matter.

    Legal precedent in Gondor is of course on Denethor's side as Ngugi correctly points out but I do not think Denethor could have withstood the claim, and would have accepted exile rather than bow to this scion of a ragged line.

    Everything changes if Boromir is still alive however, a Father's pride comes into play here and Boromir at least had major political power it would based on the fact that he also was considered a Champion and protector of Gondor, he was Gondor's pride not just a few Guardsmen who knew him well . I am not even sure which direction Faramir would turn at that point. Thankfully Tolkien spared us that.
    Last edited by muller227; March 14, 2013 at 08:43 PM.

  17. #1077
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I'm sure that Arvedui was rejected because there were descendants from the male line available, namely Earnil and Earnur.Perhaps that is what Malbeth meant.If Arvedui waited in Forochel, he would be alive, and thus when Earnur died. his claim would most likely be accepted* and he would become King of a great realm.

    *Because the choice of having a Steward seems one that was in an emergency, due to having no contact or attempt by Arvedui's line to claim the throne, nor any of Anarion's line whose claim would not be disputed.
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  18. #1078
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    I'm sure that Arvedui was rejected because there were descendants from the male line available, namely Earnil and Earnur.Perhaps that is what Malbeth meant.If Arvedui waited in Forochel, he would be alive, and thus when Earnur died. his claim would most likely be accepted* and he would become King of a great realm.

    *Because the choice of having a Steward seems one that was in an emergency, due to having no contact or attempt by Arvedui's line to claim the throne, nor any of Anarion's line whose claim would not be disputed.
    That's interesting.
    I wonder if Malbeth's prophecy actually still applied post-destruction of Arthedain.
    Though I doubt Arvedui would've still been alive when Earnur perished, judging by the Dunedain's decline of lifespan, he probably would've been dead for a good 10 years by 2050. And the prophecy applied directly to him and not to his sons.
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  19. #1079
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I don't think he would be dead. The Dunedain lifespans weren't declining that rapidly (Most of the Dunedain Chieftains died relatively young because they didn't get the chance to die of old age), and he would still be alive, if old. I am pretty sure that the prophecy applied post Arthedain. The ''Less Hopeful" choice seems to be waiting in the Snow-Bay.''King of a Great Realm" seems vague at first, but the following line ''If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dúnedain arise and are united again." seems to refer to a possible reformation of Elendil's Kingdom.
    Last edited by Feanaro Curufinwe; March 15, 2013 at 11:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Hello there, long time lurker, first time poster, I have a question that has been bothering me for sometime,The various armies of ME, what are their closest real world counterparts?

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