Tolkien General Discussion II

[Valandur]

The mixing of orcs and men into single units would be a mess. Would orcs take commands from Southrons/Easterlings? Would Southrons/Easterlings take commands from orc captains? Like Muller said, without someone like the Witch King, I don't they'd cooperate that well. All it takes is one problem and suddenly you could have an entire section of your army fighting each other. The only thing keeping them together would be their hate of Gondor.

[Ngugi]

@ muller
I would say your perception is the undoubtly the common one, however I personally consider it underestimate what Gothmog actually does and ignore the result of it.
He when things are going awefully wrong across the field, get in the reinforcments, in the right time and to the right places and is able to turn the situation into a (shortlived, but that's Aragorn's fault) success.
To be able to do that in the thick of battle, if paying heed to the situations and leaders of real military history, require an at the least compitent commander.

I actually deem that because he is on Sauron's side he's a victim of prejudice. If the tables would been turned around and he would been a, say rohirrim, even if only once mentioned, like this:

And if the Khand warriors at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Rohirrim alone, soon their case became worse; for new strength came now streaming to the field out of the north. There they had been mustered for the rescue of the City and the salvation of Gondor, waiting on the call of their King.
He now was destroyed; but Eadraed the lieutenant of Edoras had flung them into the fray; Eastfolders with axes, and veterans of Aldburg. Edorians in green, and out of north West-March swarthy men like half-dunlendings with white eyes and red tongues. Some now hastened up behind the Haradrim, others held westward to hold off the forces of Mordor and prevent their joining with Harad.
- RotK; The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

then "Eadraed" would been appraiced as a good commander, of the Rohirrim, and among commanders in all the war, without a doubt.

[muller227]

@Ngugi.

I do not believe Gothmog incompetent but he was just not as commanding as the WK, Nor did Tolkien. doesn't he say this was no mere orc chieftan or warlord of men, or something like that. Anyway my point is that without the WK, Mordor's forces do seem to break up at the arrival Aragorn and if the WK was still about I doubt that rout would have happened we hear nothing of Gothmog's ability to stem the the panic. Remember exactly how the WK fell, breaking the charge of the Rohirrim, allowing his forces too rally, and they do rally because of him, and his actions on the battlefield.

BTW I like the turnabout text I hope the heck you don't confuse anyone though.

[mondpeiler]

well, I don't want to judge Gothmog, nor his abilities in strategy.
but the point about mixed units (either real or in middle earth orcs and men) is that they need a strong leader with whom both ethnies can identify themselves.
a "simple" leader can be a strategic genious, if he is clearly identifiable with one side (in this case orcs/men), he will have big problems leading the crowd.
it is not that they wouldn't follow most of the orders (in deed they would perhaps) but the moral would be lowered (how strong, depending on how the leader treats the different ethincity).

if you look at the leaders who could unite orcs and (evil) men, you can clearly see that they are a third "ethnicity"/appearance.
Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman - all neither orc, nor man.

the Witch-King is a bit different, because he once was a man - though he clearly isn't any more - so he can lead both without problems.

So if Gothmog tells men and orcs to run and fight, they may run and fight, but not with such conviction like they would under a detached commander.
(though we don'T really know, what or who he is.)

But remember: Middle Earth is still kind of medieval world. and look at medieval forces. they often where confederate armies. there was often one leader/overlord, but often parts of the troops where directly commanded by their chieftains/captains.
(for example genuese crossbowmen, swiss mercenaries etc. or the king of Germany and the king of Poland commanding each part of the army against the Turks and so on)

[Ngugi]

@ muller
He shows proof of better tactical and strategic competence than almost every known 'good' commanders, but if you are looking for a 'hero/villain equal' and not a officer I concur Gothmog do not cut it hehe

Haha, would been hilarious, suddenly Eadraed become spread as a great commander of the war across the web and I pull my hair over it


@ mondepeiler
Judge him or be judged!
()

It would be stupid of Sauron to create multi-racial and multi-cultural batallions of the simple reason of communication Often they would not be able to talk to each other making the capacity of them crippled, least without long time to train together.
Looking at the texts Men and Orcs are discussed clearly as groups of heir own, which would not been the case if regiments were mingled.

[knight of meh]

And if the Khand warriors at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Rohirrim alone, soon their case became worse; for new strength came now streaming to the field out of the north. There they had been mustered for the rescue of the City and the salvation of Gondor, waiting on the call of their King.
He now was destroyed; but Eadraed the lieutenant of Edoras had flung them into the fray; Eastfolders with axes, and veterans of Aldburg. Edorians in green, and out of north West-March swarthy men like half-dunlendings with white eyes and red tongues. Some now hastened up behind the Haradrim, others held westward to hold off the forces of Mordor and prevent their joining with Harad.
- RotK; The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

what fresh hell is this...

@Ngugi.

. Anyway my point is that without the WK, Mordor's forces do seem to break up at the arrival Aragorn and if the WK was still about I doubt that rout would have happened

Eh no Aragorn flanked them after they had already been flanked and orcs are cowards

what i believe would have happened if the bad ing ass WK had lived .... Aragorn and the Rohirrim meet up and get a second wind then the orcs flee but the haradrim and easterlings rally and with numbers overcome and slaughter the good guys

is that they need a strong leader with whom both ethnies can identify themselves.
a "simple" leader can be a strategic genious, if he is clearly identifiable with one side (in this case orcs/men), he will have big problems leading the crowd.

i disagree a leader doesn't need to be identified with he needs 1)to be believed in and 2)be able to communicate

my case point for this is a strategic genius Napoleon he was corsican not french and also lead italians , swiss , polish , dutch ...etc in his armies

and the reason he was so successful was because he was an intelligent leader he had the army "corp" system which allowed communication between the ranks and also the men following him believed that with him leading them they could win

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

to the best of my knowledge they kept there own leaders under the big baddies

so in the first age Ulfang the black leads his men while orcs lead theirs all under Morgoth

i think this would have happened under the witchking when he took up residence in Angmar

and the best example is the war of the ring the haradrim were like a separate block of the army iirc

and that makes sense in my head the good thing about orcs is that they are savage with lots of numbers and the good thing about men in general is they have descent equipment and most of all discipline , you ruin all of these advantages except for the orc numbers (which would be less effective with men interspersed between them) if you mix the troops

I would beg to disagree about the Orcs being savages.In the Siege of Minas Tirith, and generally in cases under a feared and good commander, they seem to perform rather well, and act (Mostly) with discipline.

[Poosticks7]

I can quite easily imagine Sauron having agents whispering in the ears of the Harad, Easterling & Khandish chieftain's. Perhaps they served also as go betweens amongst the various commands. Or perhaps just to reinforce the chain of command. 'Follow the scary guy on the flying beastie, then that unassuming gentlemen lingering at the back, never take commands from Nazgul IV, he's an idiot.' etc.

[Thangaror]

In WW2, as far as I know, even allied troop contingents consisted only out of soldiers of the same nationality. English fought alongside English, Scots alongside Scots, Irish alongside Irish. Especially regarding the soldiers drawn from the colonies, it wouldn't have worked well if British had to fight alongside Indians etc.

[knight of meh]

I would beg to disagree about the Orcs being savages.In the Siege of Minas Tirith, and generally in cases under a feared and good commander, they seem to perform rather well, and act (Mostly) with discipline.

you have misinterpreted me or i haven't communicate very well when i said savage i meant that there strength lay in brute strength

and in the siege of Minas Tirith the orcs wern't disciplined they routed instead of standing and using there superior numbers to over come . the only hint of discipline i can think of is attacking the city in waves (movie or book not sure here) and the reinforcements obeying orders

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

They drew siege lines and encircled the city effectively.It was not their fault that the city was a tough nut to crack.Unless of course you believe that they could have sent all of their troops at once.

[knight of meh]

no but discipline would have been re-establishing a coherent formation after the flanking maneuvers ,reforming those lines or a tactical retreat to deal with the flanking maneuvers(granted this last one would also require an apt leader)

[Cyclops]

I do think Sauron was blowing commands into the ears of all his servants: commanders in particular but also the orcs and trolls and possibly to a lesser extent the men. At the Black Gate the orcs become witless on Saurons destruction and run away and commit suicide, whereas the men fight on (albeit in a broiken hearted fashion, expecting only torture and death).

The text makes it clear the human slaves of Sauron were chiefly ruled by lies and fear but I think they also had some mind control going on. The orcs were definitely on mind control and wopuld squabble or run when the mind controlm was disrupted (eg when Frodo issues his challenge at Sammath Naur, and possibly when the ring scramlbles the message at Cirith Ungol...that might also be Galadriel/other holders of the Three running some EW).

I think LoTN was a chief conduit for Sauron's power, a beacon of fear and control (plus in this instance a carefully crafted Istari destroyer) but he did have his own characteristics from his human life that set him above Sauron's other minions.

I have to agree another Nazgul is the most likely candidate for Gothmog's role, but a talented orc is a remote possibility. I suppose gifted troll is less likely still, but maybe Balck Numenorean is not. In the hierarchy of Sauron's forces its hard to believe a human would obvey an orc, but he might obey the voices in his head.

I think the host of Minas Tirith was destroyed because Sauron's concentration was broken by Other Powers that also let the sun through the clouds. I don't think LoTN would've changed the outcome though he was trying, and Gothmog just went down faster.

In effect Sauron is playing the battle of Pelennor Fields on his copy of TATW, and Galadriel spills a pepsi on his lap just as the icon for "Enemy Reinforcements Arrive" spools down the left hand side of his screen. LoTN gets gibbed when his BG malfunctions and leaves him isolated, and the morale hit makes a retreat cascade inevitable despite fresh stacks of reinforcements popping onto the edge of the screen (should've left them on AI and swamped the humans).

[Nastrael]

The mixing of orcs and men into single units would be a mess. Would orcs take commands from Southrons/Easterlings? Would Southrons/Easterlings take commands from orc captains? Like Muller said, without someone like the Witch King, I don't they'd cooperate that well. All it takes is one problem and suddenly you could have an entire section of your army fighting each other. The only thing keeping them together would be their hate of Gondor.

Field of Celebrant. no Nazgul or Sauron there to lead them. this has been stated before, in some cases orcs and men have been known to fight along side each other without any real leader at their head.

[conon394]

Interesting posts

In Gothmog's defense its useful to recall that is the WK's overconfidence that starts the real down hill slide for team Black. While it is true he put a strong blocking army in place on the Mina road from Rohan in good anti-cav order, the failure to secure the Rammos effectively was a bad call. Minas Morgul and Mordor should have been stocked with old Gondor paperwork and maps - the potability that absolute hatred of Pukel men for orcs and Morgoth's tools should have at least made Sauron consider the FOrest needed better scouting.

Also Sauron had to start his invasion early and he might generally have been flying blind. I not sure what the range of the small Palantier was but JRRT makes it clear it not unlimited and tiring and difficult. After loosing his battle with Aragorn I wonder how tired he was and if he hesitated to use his stone [He was still able to dupe Denathor in the end but again at what cost to himself], his dark blinded his own intelligence tools and I doubt if he ever really had an accurate impression of what happened with the fall of Saruman. He might have just gambled only a few thousand Rohan troops would show rather then more or less almost all riding all out and figured the Ents maybe only were interested in vengeance on Saruman if he even realized they had taken the field. So I'm thinking S had lots of raw power on hand but was kind of thrashing and just trying to make numbers cover for lack of info.

But overall I think the key blunder was that of the WK - Its and obvious argument for keeping classical liberal arts in college - If he read Caesar he would never have failed to fortify the Rammos so has to stand off any attack.

[Thangaror]

you have misinterpreted me or i haven't communicate very well when i said savage i meant that there strength lay in brute strength

and in the siege of Minas Tirith the orcs wern't disciplined they routed instead of standing and using there superior numbers to over come . the only hint of discipline i can think of is attacking the city in waves (movie or book not sure here) and the reinforcements obeying orders

Well, in Middle-earth we have a "heroic" age were the Kings lead there armies from the front, much like the nobles from ~700 - 1200 AD and the germanic and celtic tribes before them.
There are literally countless examples of an army fleeing the field, because there King/General was killed. This phenomenon is quite easy to explain. First of all, the second in command simply cannot be near the supreme commander, else he'd die in pretty much the same moment. He either had to command one of the wings, or is stationed at the rear. However, if the supreme commander falls, he will not immediately know. If he learns of the events, he'll either be positioned on the far side of the army and therefore it's difficult to command the opposing wing, or he has to move in. In any case, there'll be a period of time were no one has the supreme command and the army will not act coherently, but instead in three or more parts.

Gothmog probably learned immediately that the WK was killed, but until he had figured out what to do and until his commands came into effect, it was quite late.

[Ngugi]

Well, in Middle-earth we have a "heroic" age were the Kings lead there armies from the front, much like the nobles from ~700 - 1200 AD and the germanic and celtic tribes before them.
There are literally countless examples of an army fleeing the field, because there King/General was killed. This phenomenon is quite easy to explain. First of all, the second in command simply cannot be near the supreme commander, else he'd die in pretty much the same moment. He either had to command one of the wings, or is stationed at the rear. However, if the supreme commander falls, he will not immediately know. If he learns of the events, he'll either be positioned on the far side of the army and therefore it's difficult to command the opposing wing, or he has to move in. In any case, there'll be a period of time were no one has the supreme command and the army will not act coherently, but instead in three or more parts.

Gothmog probably learned immediately that the WK was killed, but until he had figured out what to do and until his commands came into effect, it was quite late.

A reasonable argumentation, but I add that we shall remember that after the Rohirrim have made their charge(s) and after the WK is killed Gothmog is known to taken command, ordered the forces and turned tables so that the Gondor-Rohan coalition once again faced destruction.
To, in that situation, manage that, is from a tactical viewpoint most impressive.

It is not until the Black Ships arrive from the south proving to be filled with Gondorian forces that the battle is finally lost.
Seemingly it is the Orcs who broke (as was the "custom" of their race when in an unfavourable spot), not so Men, but if Gothmog at this time lost control over the army in general I'd say he already proven enough to not be poorly judged for this situation that was not for Gothmog possible to forsee and thus not realistic to successfully counter-act [one more time]:

... But the hosts of Mordor were seized with bewilderment, and a great wizardry it seemed to them that their own ships should be filled with their foes; and a black dread fell on them, knowing that the tides of fate had turned against them and their doom was at hand.

East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight. South strode Éomer and men fled before his face, and they were caught between the hammer and the anvil. For now men leaped from the ships to the quays of the Harlond and swept north like a storm.

... Hard fighting and long labour they had still; for the Southrons were bold men and grim, and fierce in despair; and the Easterlings were strong and war-hardened and asked for no quarter. And so in this place and that, by burned homestead or barn, upon hillock or mound, under wall or on field, still they gathered and rallied and fought until the day wore away.

- RotK; The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

[Kiliç Alì]

I disagree with this vision, the battle strategy were discussed before the battle so both the Leader and the second-in-charge and all the subordinate commanders knew how the battle was supposed to be fought by their side. In a real army, the chain of command was well defined before the battle, whould be stupid not to do so. Now, it is true that usually armies fleed when their supreme leader, wich also happened to be their king, were killed in battle, but there are also other factors to be considered.

First of all, no concensious leader engages in combat for the simple reason to enjoy the fight: having a role of primary importance ( being both the political and military head) he either leads the charge to raise his troops morale or cripple their enemies (they'd think "if even their leader is so secure to charge us, then there is really no hope").
An example of the first case was Napoleon himself (translating-quoting from Max Gallo's biography, as I remember it, in a speech before Austerlitz: "I'll be in the rear, my dear soldiers, but if there will be peril in battle, your general will be among you". One of his trooper then answered, "Tomorrow you'll have to fight with your eyes only!" ).
Example of the second, Alexander in any of his battles, when he used cavalry to break the enemies lines and then take them from back (in fact, he was one of the first in europe to use heavvy cavalry in battle (remember greek hoplite battles? cavalry was used mostly for scouting or battling enemie's cav).

So, if the leaders gets KIA, there can be only 2 reasons for his army to flee:
1 - He had planned the battle wrong: so wrong that he got actually killed in a decisive moment. The troops flee becouse the battle is lost anyway - or at least that's how they see it.
2 - Remember that most of battle of that times were either wars of conquest or dynastic claims - if the king is killed there is no point in fighting more - the war itself becomes pointless: no claim to press or throne to defend.

EDIT that ferrit nijaed me!

[Ngugi]

You forget another reason K', you are not wrong but to reasonable, the crucial factor of fear/moral.
If the men hear their leader has fallen that likley mean something bad has happended.
Has the army been flanked or attacked from behind? Has the own offensive attempts failed? Has traitors within the army shown their true face and stabbed in the back? Can the new person in command handle the situation*? Who is even in command? Has other parts of the army already fled? Has God/the gods/luck turned against us**? Etc etc.
Each questionmark and potential answer will put the men in doubt over what the bad thing may be. Doubt often become fear and fear easily turns into panic and panic once it has taken root is extremly hard to turn around - especially as a foe using the opportunity give reason to panic even if no reason existed from the beginning.


* In history soldiers often put trust (or distrust of equal moral result) in their commander and tied success or doom to his person
** Never underestimate faith and superstition; a set back was 'never' by chance

[Cyclops]

Fair enough too, although I had always considered the flow of battle to be determined by the breaking of the clouds (and I assume the interference with Sauron's will), the text you quote makes it clear Sauron's human slaves were unbroken and fighting hard even when they were tactically defeated by Aragorn's manouevre from the rear.

I suppose in TW terms they were fighting to the death whereas the orcs werefleeing the battle.

IMHO the majority of Sauron's troops were undicsciplined by nature: orcs and goblins given to looting and flesh-eating. They were kept regimented and focussed on the highly disciplined tasks of digging trenches filled with flames (suddenly I think of Minecraft, why is that?) and positioning (and possibly constructing from pre-fab pieces-Grönd by Ikea?) complex seige engines.

The element of morale as in steadiness and discipline (so they don't run away from or towards the enemy without orders) is unnaturally high and surely was supplied by the Eye at least in part through his local WiFi hub the WK but i think also directly. There's no named commander at the Black Gate and clearly Sauron's will is directred there because his orc and troll slaves there stoip fighting when he looks away. The absence of a named commander is no obstacle to fierce fighting against solid defensive postions.

The orcs outside Minas Tirith are basically broken at the first charge and flee, and the orcs and "half-trolls" reinforcements who despite being fresh break swiftly under the renewed attack of Aragorn. How much of this is due to the Sun shining through, Sauron's possible distraction and Gothmog's lesser ability once WK is dead (er more dead)?

I think Gothmog was a lesser conduit but the key was Sauron's distraction and the sun doubling the orcs trouble. The men were less reliant on Sauron's direct will and terror of defeat gave them "depression courage" in the face of certain defeat. I doubt they'd be carrying on the assault on Minas Tirith if the battle had become bogged down by a sudden rainstorm and both sides withdrew, unless Sauron's will resumed forward pressure on them and some horrible captain led the assault.

To my mind Sauron's will is the key ingredient with able commanders more tools than independent agents.