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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #1021

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I think the problem with claiming the Variags as a Horsepeople is too fast reading :

    "...when a great dust borne on a wind from the East announced the oncoming of the enemy vanguard. This was composed not only of the war-chariots of the Wainriders but also of a force of cavalry far greater than any that had been expected."

    first of all: the (acording to Ngugi) only quote we have about them speaks of the VANGUARD - not the whole army.
    so maybe the core-army is on foot (only an assumtion).

    second: the cavalry force is not described as "great" but only as "greater than expected" - what can mean everything or nothing at all.
    it could be out of military reconnaissance... Gondor maybe simply expected less cavalry.

    so in the end all is guessing.

  2. #1022
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Indeed mondpeiler, especially as, as I point at in the last post, we do not even know if men from Khand* is part of the mounted forces.

    Possibly the Variags, if they even existed at this time, did not participate in the alliance with the Wainriders, we shall remember that just as with Rhûn and Harad Khand is a region with different folks - I do personally not as they are not ever mentioned before the War or the Ring.
    My underlining:
    ...Wainriders had been spreading southward, beyond Mordor, and were in conflict with the peoples of Khand...
    - UT
    Khandish peoples as horse-oriented folks have but the weakest theoretic foundation, Variags even less.
    Again, that do not mean they had or used not horses, naturally.

    Who may be our riders then?
    Many of the Wainriders now passed south of Mordor and made alliance with men of Khand and of Near Harad;
    - Appendix A

    The Wainriders had mustered a great host by the southern shores of the inland Sea of Rhûn, strengthened by men of their kinsfolk in Rhovanion and from their new allies in Khand. When all was ready they set out for Gondor from the East, moving with all the speed they could along the line of the Ered Lithui, where their approach was not observed until too late.
    ...a great dust borne on a wind from the East announced the oncoming of the enemy vanguard. This was composed not only of the war-chariots of the Wainriders but also of a force of cavalry far greater than any that had been expected.
    - UT
    As far as we can tell from this we still have no argument that the cavalry consisted of anything beside Wainrider* cavalry**. Perhaps Wainrider kinsfolk cavalry - but it's the most reasonable standpoint to assume least parts of the Khandish peoples forces would be mounted and therefore presumably also in the vanguard we know of.
    Such a guess is the most reliable guess that can be made, if one want to belive Khand contributed also cavalry and not only with footfolk - though it simply open up the possibility of cavalry for Khand, it do not in any way support the fan fiction argument that they were/are 'mounted folk(s)'.

    The main host of the Wainrider's coalition clearly consisted of other than cavalry:
    [The Gondorian] Minohtar took command. He was a man both valiant an warwise. The first fury of the onslaught was spent, with far less loss and greater success than the enemy had looked for. The cavalry and chariots now withdrew, for the main host of the Wainriders was approaching.
    (...)

    When the main host of the Wainriders advanced to the attack it was then two hours after noon, and Minohtar had withdrawn his line to the head of the great North Road of Ithilien, half a mile beyond the point where it turned east to the Watch-towers of the Morannon. The first triumph of the Wainriders was now the beginning of their undoing. Ignorant of the numbers and ordering of the defending army they had launched their first onslaught too soon, before the greater part of that army had time out of the narrow land of Ithilien, and the charge of their chariots and cavalry had met with a success far swifter and more overwhelming than they had expected. Their main onslaught as then too long delayed, and they could no longer use their greater numbers with full effect according to the tactics they had intended, being accustomed to warfare in open lands. It may well be supposed that elated by the fall of the King and the rout of a large part of the opposing Centre, they believed that they had already overthrown the defending army, and that their own main army had little more to do than advance to the invasion and occupation of Gondor. If that were so, they were deceived.
    - UT
    This may of course be read as "all the other cavalry not making up the vanguard and only such", but I leave that out as a strech interpetation.
    Why the rest of the army could not rapidly follow if all mounted is somewhat odd and apperently the chariots and cavalry is mentioned as something else than the "main army".


    * I assume nobody belive only their chieftains had horses and the rest of the armed forces were footfolk?
    They journeyed in great wains, and their chieftains fought in chariots.
    - Appendix A

    ** Note that it is easy to read .
    ..not only of the war-chariots of the Wainriders but also of a force of cavalry...
    as a description telling us that not only were there Wainrider chariots in place but also Wainrider [as in that specific, named group] cavalry in place - it do not have to include either their kinsfolks or Khand troops at all.
    It is the less likley reading, but in no way incorrect and should be seriously mentioned.
    Last edited by Ngugi; March 10, 2013 at 05:13 PM.

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  3. #1023
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Ngugi are you secretly stephen colbert?

    Skip ahead to 5:35




  4. #1024
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    That was hilarious

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  5. #1025

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    yeah Ngugi, what leads us to the question: are all the wainriders riding wains?

    we do not even know this.

    all we know is, the people of Gondor called them so. why? because they had a special weapon which was new to the Gondorians: the chariot.
    (I think, we can be pretty sure, the wainriders didn't call themselves so, because for them it wouldn't have been special to ride a wain.)
    but that doesn't even mean that the main part of the army consisted of wains.
    A) the amount of chariots (and other cavalry) in their army could be hughe [50-80%] - for it seems they where a steppe folk (if so, it would be quite logical).
    B) but they could also be a folk from far more east and perhaps not of steppe-origin. in this case the amount of cavalry would be far less [only nobles (referd to in quote) so maybe only 10-20%].

    I'm not quite sure, but personally I tend to a mixture between A and B. I think it would be a bit over the top to thionk, that all "wainriders" rode wains...

    (
    just some examples of how people called their enemies in RL:
    - Vikings (=Raiders) | wheren't even one folk: Norwegians, Danes, Frisians - and not every "viking" that came to Britain was a real viking/raider, some where settlers, some merchants.
    - Krauts (=Germans) | not every German eats Kraut [and obviously, not everyone who eats Kraut is a German]
    )


    So in the end, I think the core of the eastern army was in deed on foot. that's why the vanguard was too fast and the main army followed to slowly to use the momentum against Gondor.

  6. #1026
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    does anyone know which was the relationship between the orcs and the men of the East ?

    We all know they were all part of Saruon's army but I find hard to imagine Orcs and Man standing side by side, even though they were Easterlings, Haradrim or Variags ecc ecc...

    Then, they were under the command of Who? and Orc? a Man? there has never been a conflict between east men and Orcs ?

    Thanks,

  7. #1027
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    to the best of my knowledge they kept there own leaders under the big baddies

    so in the first age Ulfang the black leads his men while orcs lead theirs all under Morgoth

    i think this would have happened under the witchking when he took up residence in Angmar

    and the best example is the war of the ring the haradrim were like a separate block of the army iirc

    and that makes sense in my head the good thing about orcs is that they are savage with lots of numbers and the good thing about men in general is they have descent equipment and most of all discipline , you ruin all of these advantages except for the orc numbers (which would be less effective with men interspersed between them) if you mix the troops
    Last edited by knight of meh; March 11, 2013 at 08:12 AM.

  8. #1028

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The term wainriders is interesting, for a few reasons.
    First the wide use of wagons for movement of nomadic and semi-nomadic people is known in history. Mongols, Magyars too name a couple or on a different scale and purpose settlers of the American west. Wains are considered different from chariots it would seem to me, I have sort of concluded this too be a folk who developed a sort of highly mobile infantry. If I remember my quote right it is that "they rode to war in wains" that does not mean they fought from them. Deployment of such a force en masse for offensive operations, in a geographic area like North Ithilien would be difficult, requiring much coming and going of transport along narrow limited track, compared too a wide parallet deployment possible on the plains of Rhun. Modern armoured columns are very vulnerable even to limited force if they are stuck on a narrow track, hence the use of massed artillery and airpower to clear the way.

    Given the difficulties of fodder and cost of such transport why would it be used, I think one could imagine that this might have been very heavily armed infantry.

    Tolkien at times too me seems to blend ancient and very modern methods, modern mounted infantry at least in his day or in WW2 rode to war in trucks and armored transport vehicles of limited capability. It wasn't until much later their was larges scale deployment of the much more useful AFV's.
    Last edited by muller227; March 11, 2013 at 01:15 PM. Reason: adding too

  9. #1029
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    oh you don't know what a wain is? it's like a cart usually four wheeled pulled by oxen or horses and most commonly it was used for agriculture

    this book and some references to eastern europe (Poland , parts of the holy roman empire etc) using it for mobile musket volleys are the only times i have heard about it used in war the Mongol and Magyars as nomads had many horses which were there strength no need for wagons on the battle field

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...2F%3B640%3B327

    ^ hay wains
    Last edited by knight of meh; March 11, 2013 at 01:26 PM.

  10. #1030

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I said Wainriders rode too war in them, and distinctly said they did not fight from them. Mongols of course used cavalry in their method of warfare, but as a people they make wide use wagons or wains in the transport of their people and goods. In my youth I spent a good deal of time living in a sheepwagon, look it up the concept is vary adaptable. It is not at all hard too imagine that Tolkien conceived them as a transported infantry.

  11. #1031
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Wains are considered different from chariots it would seem to me,

    ^ was replying to this ... i was just telling you what they were and where i have heard of them wasn't actually replying or commenting on your argument

  12. #1032

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Thats cool I misunderstood your post, sorry for that. I have always envisaged these wains as four wheeled or it would be a cart in my terminology.

  13. #1033
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Agree with muller on this

    Wains and chariots can be the same thing, but looking at Tolkien's texts it is apperent he have two different kind of wagons in mind.
    The wagons used in battle are called, and only called, chariots or war-chariots while the rest of the people have wains.
    Wains are only once* described in a battle, and then it is when Gondor's army attack a Wainrider camp so it is not helping the idea of 'military wains'.

    I am sure Tolkien had the wain as a homestead in mind. A wain when looking into dictionaries** is as a rule another thing than a war-chariot, it's a wagon for 'domestic use'.
    As a people they are called Wainriders because their people used wains, not only because their chieftains fought in chariots - and not because their chieftains fought in wains:
    They journeyed in great wains, and their chieftains fought in chariots.
    - Appendix A

    (starting to get my favourite quote hehe)

    Now, word interpetations and guesses are fine, but have we readers any reason to belive Tolkien really DID have wains as in non-military vehicles in mind?
    Yes, yes indeed, simply look at how and when he uses the word and it become obvious he imagine the civilian tool of transport:
    The chief and most ancient road suitable for wheels, ran from the greatest port, Rómenna in the east, to the royal city of Armenelos, and thence on to the Valley of the Tombs and the Meneltarma; and this road was early ex­tended to Ondosto within the borders of the Forostar, and thence to Andúnië in the west. Along it passed wains bearing stone from the Northlands that was most esteemed for building, and timber in which the Westlands were rich.
    - UT; The description of the Island of Numenor

    "If I return, I say: but be assured that I shall return, for the keeping of my oath, unless disaster befall us and I perish with my people on the long road. For that must be on the east side of Anduin ever under the threat of Mirkwood, and at last must pass through the vale that is haunted by the shadow of the hill that you name Dol Guldur. On the west side there is no road for horsemen, nor for a great host of people and wains, even were not the Mountains infested by Orcs; and none can pass, few or many, through the Dwimordene where dwells the White Lady and weaves nets that no mortal can pass."
    - Eorl's words and we are never told his folk used wagons in war, UT; Cirion and Eorl

    Horsemen were galloping on the grass of Rohan; wolves poured from Isengard. From the havens of Harad ships of war put out to sea; and out of the East Men were moving endlessly: swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains.
    - again a distinction between chariots and wains as seen before with teh Wainriders, I dare to assume it's a matter of tross
    From FotR;

    Many roads and tracks crossed the green fields, and there was much coming and going: wains moving in lines towards the Great Gate, and others passing out. ...
    On the ride horsemen galloped to and fro, but all the street seemed to be choked with great covered wains going south. But soon Pippin saw that all was in fact well-ordered: the wains were moving in three lines, one swifter drawn by horses; another slower, great waggons with fair housings of many colours, drawn by oxen; and along the west rim of the road many smaller carts hauled by trudging men.
    - Gondor did not use wagons in war and they are not associated with warriors here, RotK; Minas Tirith

    It was Gandalf that brought the first tidings. With a handful of horsemen he came in the middle morning, riding as escort to a line of wains. They were filled with wounded men, all that could be saved from the wreck of the Causeway Forts. (...)

    All day the labour went forward, while the men of Minas Tirith looked on, unable to hinder it. And as each length of trench was completed, they could see great wains approaching; and soon yet more companies of the enemy were swiftly setting up, each behind the cover of a trench, great engines for the casting of missiles.
    - again they are simply tools of transportation, RotK; The Siege of Gondor

    Merry was summoned and rode away with the wains that took store of goods to Osgiliath and thence by ship to Cair Andros;
    - RotK; The Steward and the King

    Then they laid the bier upon a great wain with Riders of Rohan all about it and his banner borne before; and Merry being Théoden’s esquire rode upon the wain and kept the arms of the king. (...)

    And Éomer said: ‘Kings of old would have laden you with gifts that a wain could not bear for your deeds upon the fields of Mundburg;'
    - RotK; Many Partings
    The Balcoth are further helping us here, who are never told to use chariots in war, but non the less had wains - and that is compaired to the Wainriders:
    It was thus not until the winter of the year 2509 was past that Cirion became aware that a great movement against Gondor was being prepared: hosts of men were mustering all along the southern eaves of Mirkwood. They were only rudely armed, and had no great number of horses for riding, using horses mainly for draught, since they had many large wains, as had the Wainriders (to whom they were no doubt akin) that assail Gondor in the last days of the Kings.
    - UT; The Ride of Eorl
    One note should be added: wains yet could have a tactical importance, but not as an offensive weapon. Just as the Wainriders used their wains did for example historical Goths** used theirs:
    The revolt planned and assisted by Marhwini had indeed broken out; desperate outlaws coming out of the Forest had roused the slaves, and together had succeeded in burning many of the dwellings of the Wainriders, and their storehouses, and their fortified camps of wagons
    - UT


    @ Vankar
    Wicked men and Orcs could join forces even when not under direct control of an "overlord" (Dark Lord, Balrog, Dragon, Nazgûl or other by "overlord" appointed leader) - though only one known case exist IIRC;
    In the days of Cirion the Steward there came a great assault by the Balchoth, who allied with Orcs crossed the Anduin into the Wold and began the conquest of Calenardhon. From this deadly peril, which would have brought ruin upon Gondor, the coming of Eorl the Young and the Rohirrim rescued the realm.
    - UT; Cirion and Eorl
    While it is possible this was due to Sauron's schemes we ahve nothing that support it was so.
    As a general rule however we have no reason to assume Men joined forces with Orcs out of free will, or the oppposit. Orcs are not good bed mates.


    *
    In 1944 King Ondoher and both his sons, Artamir and Faramir, fell in battle north of the Morannon, and the enemy poured into Ithilien. But Eärnil, Captain of the Southern Army, won a great victory in South Ithilien and destroyed the army of Harad that had crossed the River Poros. Hastening north, he gathered to him all that he could of the retreating Northern Army and came up against the main camp of the Wainriders, while they were feasting and revelling, believing that Gondor was overthrown and that nothing remained but to take the spoil. Eärnil stormed the camp and set fire to the wains, and drove the enemy in a great rout out of Ithilien.
    - UT; The Northmen and the Wainriders
    ** Examples:
    http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...sh/wain?q=wain
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Wain
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wain
    http://dictionary.die.net/wain
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wain

    ***
    http://www.historynet.com/adrianople...-antiquity.htm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adrianople
    Last edited by Ngugi; March 11, 2013 at 01:53 PM.

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  14. #1034
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    that was quite the double post Ngugi

  15. #1035

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Beat me on that!! but what the hell that is as thorough an education about the Wainriders as we need, including Tolkien's intended word usage, once again I salute the man.

    In my reading Tolkien I often mentally draw strange analogies with the real world, the Wainriders difficulties in North Ithilien immediately drew to my mind the experience of XXX Corps and its advance on Arnhem during Market-Garden. Sometimes they fit sometimes they don't.
    Last edited by muller227; March 11, 2013 at 02:19 PM.

  16. #1036
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Haha, thanks for the appriciation, makes it much more fun to dive into these matters, and really gives it a point at all

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  17. #1037

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by knight of meh View Post
    to the best of my knowledge they kept there own leaders under the big baddies

    so in the first age Ulfang the black leads his men while orcs lead theirs all under Morgoth

    i think this would have happened under the witchking when he took up residence in Angmar

    and the best example is the war of the ring the haradrim were like a separate block of the army iirc

    and that makes sense in my head the good thing about orcs is that they are savage with lots of numbers and the good thing about men in general is they have descent equipment and most of all discipline , you ruin all of these advantages except for the orc numbers (which would be less effective with men interspersed between them) if you mix the troops
    I generally agree with this. Tolkien seems to express them as fighting common enemies seperately. Real humanity does in general not fight together well as allies. In the end it is about the bonds of a unit which tend too get very close and familial. British and American units seem to have done very well on a whole, compared too say German and Italian units. The bonding scheme could work well enough for say Gondor and Rohan which it really seems to have, while the Haradrim and orcs seem to have faced their enemies in sequence and not toghether., I do not think this an accident. The victory at Pelennor is largely explained by it, the coherent command structure of Mordor seems to have rested solely on the Witch King, (the only heroic sort of Sauron's generals aside from a Haradrim chieftan). After Angmar goes down Mordor clearly suffers it seems from rear echelon command compared to the heroism of the western lords leading and dying in defense of the White City.

    I think the old trench soldier let out some personal angst at this point.
    Last edited by muller227; March 11, 2013 at 05:14 PM.

  18. #1038
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    the German regiments evolved iron discipline instead and it must have been scary considering our world V Germany history

  19. #1039
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Let's not underrest Gothmog the - ehm, well, whatever creature he is - in his one an only apperence of stratgeic and tactical genious, his dread, his valour and pondus!
    And if the Rohirrim at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse; for new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues. Some now hastened up behind the Rohirrim, others held westward to hold off the forces of Gondor and prevent their joining with Rohan.

    - RotK; The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
    Ok, I exaggerate but his command seems to prove him no less than a competent leader, perhaps more, wielding authority to make the forces follow order according to plan and to adjust to the set backs that could toppled the forces of Sauron otherwise.
    Last edited by Ngugi; March 11, 2013 at 05:27 PM.

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  20. #1040

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The German Army is the height of overall discipline really, yet it depended too a large degree on regional formation. Both good and bad from a strategic viewpoint, units down too the company level were formed from distinct localities. This meant the soldiers had much in common and blended easily into a unit. Bad thing is an entire town could lose a generation in less than the blink of eye. Happened to some the early American NG units, Brit territorial as well. At the line level the Germans did not respect their Italian counterparts, at best they looked too themselves at Italian expense, at worst they actually used their superior firepower too steal Italian trucks and transport during the 42-43 winter retreat.

    Given real human Human history the coooperation between orcs and men without someone like the Witch King present must have downright miserable.

    @ngugi

    Gothmog flings soldiers into the fray, we have no indication he entered himself, seems pretty REMF actually given Tolkiens world. The Witch King on the other hand seems to have been all over the place facing Istari breaking Rohirric battle iniative, until he ran into a berserk Blonde girl, yep they are a terrible form of the human species. (Hey I am not Kidding)
    Last edited by muller227; March 11, 2013 at 05:42 PM.

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