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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #941
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    ....Really?
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    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    About what to who, Feanaro? ^^

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  3. #943
    Krieglord's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    See Letter 210 from June 1958 where Tolkien's comments on the film 'treatment' of The Lord of the Rings, a.k.a a film script made by a guy named Zimmerman.
    Beside such story telling aspects, as well as credibility matters (which I deem as mainly a point that Eagles are not taxis), the most credible in-world reason would be, not described, that they as servants of Manwë were not allowed to interfere as creating a solution for the Children.
    There's this again (my underlining):
    If it was not for the long travel much good would not come to pass. Théoden would not been liberated nor Ents roused, meaing Saruman would broken Rohan, Aragorn would not been king of Gondor, the Corsairs would remained etc. From the evil good came as well, at a price but yet well bought; a fate which the Eagles are not allowed to try to short cut around

    Thankyou helpful info as always

    I wasn't implying I would prefer it I just was wondering if the eagles as servants of manwe would be able to undertake that mission and complete it.


    Haha modern world thinking Tolkien would hate basically just turning the eagles into machines of war like bomber aircraft.
    Last edited by Krieglord; March 03, 2013 at 05:52 AM.



  4. #944
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    About what to who, Feanaro? ^^
    The Eagles to Mount Doom guy.
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  5. #945
    Krieglord's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    The Eagles to Mount Doom guy.
    Like I said in my above post was just wondering about the physical possibility of Manwe's eagles getting into Mordor, defeating any airborne enemies along the way and dropping the ring into Orodruin.

    If you were president instead of Truman would you rather a few men have gone on a long journey and swam/walked from New Mexico to Japan with the atomic bombs or just use your air force?

    Now replace Truman with Council of Elrond and Atom bomb with Ring of power

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    Last edited by Krieglord; March 03, 2013 at 07:44 AM.



  6. #946
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Like I said in my above post was just wondering about the physical possibility of Manwe's eagles getting into Mordor, defeating any airborne enemies along the way and dropping the ring into Orodruin.
    I just don't see it happening. Anymore than I think they could fly into Golden Wood. I think Sauron could parry any such attempt. The fellowship succeeds ultimately because it ends up creating so many distractions and issues well away from where the ring is at But I also think they would not in the Hobbit they are sort are tied to Manwe so much, but of course the LOTR links them back to the first age Eagles and thus They won't act except at the last extremity and only seemingly for those who have made a leap of faith...

    Although given the end of the Hobbit its more odd really that they did not show up to Erebor.

    There is no doubt JRRT has a problem between his Hobbit Eagles and his servant of Manwe Eagles.
    Last edited by conon394; March 03, 2013 at 07:50 AM.
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  7. #947
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Krieglord View Post
    Like I said in my above post was just wondering about the physical possibility of Manwe's eagles getting into Mordor, defeating any airborne enemies along the way and dropping the ring into Orodruin.

    If you were president instead of Truman would you rather a few men have gone on a long journey and swam/walked from New Mexico to Japan with the atomic bombs or just use your air force?

    Now replace Truman with Council of Elrond and Atom bomb with Ring of power

    Clearly I belong in the evil camp since I have a mind of metal... and wheels




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    Let's see...

    A:Sauron controls the weather above Mordor
    B:I think Giant Eagles would be easy to notice.
    C:What about one of the Eagles wanting the Ring?
    D:Sauron has Fellbeasts and Archers, with which he can stop them.
    E:Any filure means that Sauron gets the Ring.
    F:Eagles are not F-16s, they have to eat and rest.Especially ones carrying people.
    G:What makes you so sure the Eagles would co-operate?
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  8. #948
    Aikanár's Avatar no vaseline
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II



    or

    Last edited by Aikanár; March 03, 2013 at 10:08 AM.


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  9. #949
    Krieglord's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post

    Let's see...

    A:Sauron controls the weather above Mordor
    B:I think Giant Eagles would be easy to notice.
    C:What about one of the Eagles wanting the Ring?
    D:Sauron has Fellbeasts and Archers, with which he can stop them.
    E:Any filure means that Sauron gets the Ring.
    F:Eagles are not F-16s, they have to eat and rest.Especially ones carrying people.
    G:What makes you so sure the Eagles would co-operate?
    To my knowledge though it talks about him creating cloud for his ork's but could he create a gust of wind strong enough to force down an eagle or host of eagles?

    Probably for Sauron but so what? If you haven't noticed it Mordor is A LOT larger then represented in the movie at the battle of the Morannon... Archers and Fellbeast's take time to get anywhere same as the rest of us... The Eagles are servents of Manwe and would be stronger then a few fell beasts bred by Sauron.

    Yes true so failure would not be an option... a suicide mission perhaps :/

    Again true but again Mordor is a big place and if they went the long route round Mordor the area around the sea of nurnen is more then fertile enough to feed them.

    And I wasn't sure it was a purely hypothetical question



  10. #950
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    To my knowledge though it talks about him creating cloud for his ork's but could he create a gust of wind strong enough to force down an eagle or host of eagles?

    Probably for Sauron but so what? If you haven't noticed it Mordor is A LOT larger then represented in the movie at the battle of the Morannon... Archers and Fellbeast's take time to get anywhere same as the rest of us... The Eagles are servents of Manwe and would be stronger then a few fell beasts bred by Sauron.
    Who made the snow in the pass? In any case the actual felloship was watched when it left - that seems to imply a big flight of eagles coming to Rivendell would have been noticed. Thay would need to land and rest or bring many alternate birds and even then they are not jet fighters. So a lot of birds and a still a slow journey. If the Lady of wood can make a refreshing white mist why not a black disorienting one over Mordor?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  11. #951

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The eagles were certainly the fastest and most durable flying beasts that we saw in the book, except dragons. They could very easily outrun the Nazgul.

    Also, the eagles from the First Age may not be exactly the same eagles in the Third Age. However, their capabilities are shown in Silmarillion. They managed to reach the strongholds of Morgoths multiple times. Thorondor saved Fingolfin and wounded Morgoth.
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  12. #952

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The Eagles were definitely powerful, but they relied on their speed. They were physically more fragile than most give them credit. Even with Morgoth, all that occured was one flew by and snatched the body of Fingolfin before Morgoth could desecrate his corpse, and then scratched him along the way. It's likely the Eagles, like pretty much everything else, declined since the First Age, and powerful as they are, Sauron would notice them entering his lands long, long before they got to Mordor, if they had the Ring. All the Nine Nazgul, the Witch-King included, along with archery and tower defenses would be scrambled to stop them, and indeed, Sauron did have his own weather-like powers, like when he conjured an unnatural storm over Minas Tirith during the siege. You've got arrows, lightning, catapults, Nazgul, Fell Beasts, the Witch-King's sorcery: all of this standing against a handful of Eagles. Even if they did speed past, all it takes is for one Eagle or the person the Eagle is carrying to drop the Ring, and if they dropped it either by accident, injury, or death, the Nazgul would have it grabbed themselves very quickly. Boom, Sauron just got his Ring, Middle-Earth is doomed.

    Flying the Ring in seems convenient, but there are simply too many risks. It took much longer, but sneaking in the Hobbits, and sacrificing so much human life at the Black Gate, though all of this seems convaluted and costly, ensured there was no way the Ring would be obtained.

  13. #953

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Forget the archers or catapults. Archers and catapults can not fire that high.

    Eagles managed to rescue Luthien and Beren from Angband as well as snatching Fingolfin's body from Morgoth.

    Morgoth had much more power and powerful beasts.

    All Sauron could do is to send those couple of fell beasts. I'm not sure if he was capable of sending lightning bolts.
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  14. #954
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Why not? He possibly was behind the Storm at Caradhras.If Sauron could notice it, and he would, because Giant Eagles heading straight for Mount Doom wpuld be noticed.The sea of Nurnen is well, another place with garrisons and is also in Mordor.Mordor may be large, but Sauron had a Palantir, the Agents of Manwe would arouse his suspicions (Unless he were thinking''Oh, the Old dudes from the Timeless Halls have come for a reunion,I've missed them!").And an Eagle may be stronger than a Fellbeast, but the Eagle would be carrying a certain something.If they engaged in battle, the Ringbearer could very well fall off.
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  15. #955
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    Forget the archers or catapults. Archers and catapults can not fire that high.

    Eagles managed to rescue Luthien and Beren from Angband as well as snatching Fingolfin's body from Morgoth.

    Morgoth had much more power and powerful beasts.

    All Sauron could do is to send those couple of fell beasts. I'm not sure if he was capable of sending lightning bolts.
    None of them airborne.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
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  16. #956

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    He can create a storm but actually directing the lighting is not something that I think fall as one of his powers.

    Of course the eagles would be noticed. Their mere presence would be enough. They would only need to carry two individuals. Frodo and Gandalf. The two eagles would go directly to the mountain while the others distract the fell beasts. Once the ring is in the mountain the beasts would simply run away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    None of them airborne.
    None of what?
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  17. #957
    Krieglord's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Who made the snow in the pass?
    Gimli says that the mountain was called Caradhas the cruel long before Sauron was known in the region so it was some type of ancient power and this is just speculation but maybe Saruman harnessed it or awoke it to try and kill the fellowship.

    As for the eagles TheSutekh is making some excellent points and pretty much the same arguments I would have made...

    Also it must be remembered (to my knowledge) we are never told how many fellbeasts Sauron had bred (we don't even know if their was one for each nazgul)



  18. #958
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    i think we only meet 2-3 fell beasts i the books.... and ballista would be much better eagle killers although i am not certain mordor had them ... but even a cross bow bolt hitting the right place could bring an eagle down... just have to wait until they descend to mount doom then unleash a volley

  19. #959

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by knight of meh View Post
    i think we only meet 2-3 fell beasts i the books.... and ballista would be much better eagle killers although i am not certain mordor had them ... but even a cross bow bolt hitting the right place could bring an eagle down... just have to wait until they descend to mount doom then unleash a volley
    That's physically not possible. You need soldiers all the way to the top of Mount Doom (which is an active volcano) to be able to have a shot at an eagle. Those soldiers should be waiting there 24/7 to be able to climb the mountain before the eagles arrive.
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  20. #960
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    cross bow bolts on a medieval cross bow can go 300-500 yards so about 270-470 meters lets say were the lower end is accurate .. and the eagles would have to come down to drop the ring in the volcano you are not going to drop it from 500 feet of the ground and hope the wind doesn't blow it away from mount doom .. also fell beast + ring wraith + cross bow aim for the wing bones job done

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