Tolkien General Discussion II

[ztree]

The Witchking certainly had spells (crashed the gate of Minias Tirith with the help of one). Maybe some higher ups from the orcs as well. As some of them were even Maia in origin (Boldog) they could possibly make such things happen, as they had greater understanding of the nature of Magic, compared to the common orc and men.

And then there is Beorn, who could shapeshift into another species (that is comparable to a powerfull spell). And then we have the Druedain with their stone figures.
Would be interesting to know, if anything is known about the Haradrim or Easterlings on the power of spells?

[Flinn]

Can it be that Gandalf was referring to his "former" life in Valinor when he said "I once knew..." ??

I was wondering about this point since the very first time I read the LotR, because it looked to me strange that he had once in Middle Earth knew something and than forgot it.

Anyway I think "spell" is used as a general word, not only with the logic of "magic"

F

[fryslan]

could a person from harad become a good human?

1) convert

2) raised by good men? (from baby to aduld)

[Ngugi]

could a person from harad become a good human?

1) convert

2) raised by good men? (from baby to aduld)

Yes, they are humans, and humans are not born evil but it is a matter of indoctrination and culture (if on a large scale and not individual) just as much in Tolkien's world as in ours.

And in the south and in the further east Men multiplied; and most of them turned to evil, for Sauron was at work.
(...)
In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and aimed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Actually there are good men in the East and South;

He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron.
- Aragorn, Appendix A

And less obvious Tolkien allows the reader understand this himself;

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace-all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind.
- TTT; Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

As an obvious contrast to the "the Men in the West are good" we have the Númenóreans who became evil slavers, tyrants and sacrificed humans; the Dunlendings and their wild forefathers became enemies of the Dúnedain because Dúnedain destroyed their forests and stole their lands etc, many Gondorians were racists to their own downfall, folks living in Bree are evil and trie to take the town during the War of the Ring, Hobbits can join Saruman's evil regime in the Shire etc
Tolkien is not overly obvious in this but it is a red thread trough all his work that it is will and acts that make one good, not something you are born as, about Men and Elves - in difference to say Orcs who have been corrupted my the two Dark Lords (Morgoth and Sauron) when they were created to be and like to be evil.

[knight of meh]

question?

a red thread

why a red thread?

[Ngugi]

Mean a logic or aim that run through the entire work, think it's from greek myth
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariad...gic)#section_5

[knight of meh]

Mean a logic or aim that run through the entire work, think it's from greek myth
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariad...gic)#section_5

the Minotaur myth .. it's funny i know that one.. should a caught on there

[Macilrille]

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace-all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind.

This is also something coming directly from the trenches of WWI where many- many soldiers of both sides wondered the same about a fallen enemy at some point.

I have to quibble your statement that Orks like to be evil. We do not actually know that. We just know they are.
I do not believe they actually necessarily like it; they may or may not, but it is their nature. And it is part of that nature to hate their evil master, so possibly also to hate being evil on a subconscious level, yet not knowing what it is they hate and to do more evil out of frustration- a tortured existance that it would have pleased their Master Melkor well for his Elven- Human enemies to suffer.

That is a possible interpretation and one I like. That the subconscious self-hatred and loathing drive the Orks to more evil out of frustration for their tortured existance though they know it not.

[RuleBritannia]

And don't forget the Kin-strife atrocities and loss of life committed by Western Men upon Western Men. It's made clear there's a moral difference between Men and Orcs, but Tolkien does a lot of grey-shading with Easterlings, Westerlings, Dunlandings, and Haradrim.

And I'd say Orcs are evil out of frustration as well. They're pushed around, beaten, and slaved by their bosses, so they take that frustration out in battle. That's one reason Orcs often preferred to strike weaker foes, like Hobbits, who couldn't push them around. Orcs are said to love war, but Men can be the same way, so an enjoyment of bloodshed isn't purely an Orkish ideology.

[Ngugi]

Myths Transformed VIII to X give us many approches, theories and interpetations, many contradictions as usual with Orcs ^^
I lean towards this, though put in a greater context it may be contested.

(...)
But the Orcs were not [mindless puppets]. They were certainly dominated by their Master, but his dominion was by fear, and they were aware of this fear and hated him. They were indeed so corrupted that they were pitiless, and there was no cruelty nor wickedness that they would not commit; but this was the corruption of independent wills, and they took pleasure in their deeds. They were capable of acting on their own, doing evil deeds unbidden for their own sport; or if Morgoth and his agents were far away, they might neglect his commands. They hated one another and often fought among themselves, to the detriment of Morgoth's plans.
Moreover, the Orcs continued to live and breed and to carry on their business of ravaging and plundering after Morgoth was overthrown. (...)
- Myths Transformed; X; Orcs

My perception is that Orcs are redimable, but only by Eru, due to some other parts of his texts.

(...)
See 'Melkor'. It will there be seen that the wills of Orcs and Balrogs etc. are part of Melkor's power 'dispersed'. Their spirit is one of hate. But hate is non-coöperative (except under direct fear). Hence the rebellions, mutinies, etc. when Morgoth seems far off. Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar. Also (n.b.) Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth). Aulë wanted love. But of course had no thought of dispersing his power. Only Eru can give love and independence. If a finite sub-creator tries to do this he really wants absolute loving obedience, but it turns into robotic servitude and becomes evil.
(...)
- I note that this argumentation is part of the idea of Orcs only in part Elven or Men, Myths Transformed; VIII; Orcs

They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote ‘irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good.)
- Letter 153

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not ‘made’ by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law.
- Myths Transformed; X; Orcs

Could an Orc redeem himself or if brought up among say Elves be good? Possible indeed, but as I think they are marred, containing to much of Morgoth, I personally do not belive it.

[RuleBritannia]

Gorbag puts it well too in Cirith Ungol, how the Men love the Orcs no more than they love Sauron and all he stands for. I think one reason, besides their own hatred for Men and their enjoyment of fighting them, some Orcs may not even truly want to fight, or may want peace with the West at one point, but they know that even if the Orcs tried to redeem themselves, Men (at least Western ones besides Dunland) would never accept them or want to cooperate.

[Vankar]

Hello Folks,

what i am going to write has been extracted from the Silmarillion but dont know exactly where (it is in italian, I will translate later):

« Tutte le creature viventi quel giorno presero partito, e in entrambi gli schieramenti ve n'erano d'ogni genere, sia quadrupedi che pennuti, l'unica eccezione essendo costituita dagli Elfi, i soli che non si fossero divisi e che seguirono Gil-galad. Pochi dei Nani combatterono dall'una o dall'altra parte; comunque la stirpe di Durin di Moria si batté contro Sauron. »

ENGLISH VERSION

All the living creatures took a side and on both armies they were countless and of many races, the only exception was taken by elves, the unique race not to be divided and on both sides as they all follow Gil-galad. Few Dwarves fought on one or another side; anyway the descent of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron

MY QUESTION!

i was very sruprised of reading this "Few Dwarves fought on one or another side; anyway the descent of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron"...

which dwarves fought on Mordor's side ?!?!?!?!?

is it true ???

THANKS !!

[Ngugi]

In original the quote reads (just adding it for the record):

From Imladris they crossed the Misty Mountains by many passes and marched down the River Anduin, and so came at last upon the host of Sauron on Dagorlad, the Battle Plain, which lies before the gate of the Black Land. All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

We do not know what Dwarves were working with/for Sauron, but the two other houses in the West, the Firebeards and Broadbeams, are likley less credible to joined Sauron since they are close to the Longbeards, Durin's folk, and had presumably fought him in earlier wars.
But individuals from those two folks could be exceptions.

We know almost know nothing at all about the four houses in the far east; Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots.
Companies from those people could be present but why? We shall remember this:

They are a tough, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsmen rather than things that live by their own life. But are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy of free will, whatever the tales of Men alleged. For Men of old lusted after their wealth and the work of their hands, and there has been enmity between the races.
- Appendix F

[RuleBritannia]

Yeah, I think greed of some Dwarves for gems, etc. would've possibly been a ploy for Sauron to persuade/corrupt a handful to work for him.

[Macilrille]

Do not give the Orks too much credit, I did not say they are not evil and do not love war. Just that it is made even worse by the subconscious frustration and hatred. I am basically with Ngugi, but offer some more perspective.

Could an Orc redeem himself or if brought up among say Elves be good? Possible indeed, but as I think they are marred, containing to much of Morgoth, I personally do not belive it.

The Elves in Sil certainly thought that they could, remember? But it never happened. So, basically you are probably right, though we have no proof.

[Flinn]

concur with Ngugi

altough my personal idea proves nothing, the "feeling" I have with the dwarves over the variuos things I read is that they are not very good, nor evil, but they only cares about their own business.

Much very like to some peoples in the real life ....

F

[Mikail Mengsk]

Honestly i can't imagine any dwarf to go to battle togather with orcs. Dwarves can be "manipulated" by exploiting their greed, or their hatred toward elves, but they always have been, as a race, impervious to any kind of dominance. We don't know anything about the eastern houses, anyway.

Maybe "Chaos Dwarves" exists, after all.

[Krieglord]

I have a question about the Avari elves

after the war of wrath I presume the Cuivienen (from how Tolkien gateway explains it) was destroyed so where did the Avari elves go? where they in some hidden land or mingled in with other elves until the end of the 3rd age?

I wonder if Sauron would have been able to corrupt them to his will... hmm

[knight of meh]

i thought only beleriand/northern middle earth was destroyed in the war of wrath , Cuivienen i believe was in the far east

[Ngugi]

Cuivienen has been lost at least.

Avari AFAIK lived spread out across the north of Middle earth.
A bunch you've encountered a lot, Avari who were of the same kin as Teleri (they tended to be more civil* hehe), because they make up part of the Silvans

...before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these.
- Appendix B

Remnants of the Telerian Elves (of Doriath in ancient Beleriand) establish realms in the woodlands far eastward, but most of these peoples are Avari or East-elves.
- HoME 12; The Tale of Years of the Second Age

For there were other Elves of various kind in the world; and many were Eastern Elves that had hearkened to no summons to the Sea, but being content with Middle-earth remained there, and remained long after, fading in fastnesses of the woods and hills, as Men usurped the lands. Of that kind were the Elves of Greenwood the Great; yet among them also were many lords of Sindarin race. …
- HoME 12; The Appendix on Languages: Commentary

You find quite some info on the Avari in HoME 11; Quendi and Eldar from which I will take time to quote, due to the question:

The implication that … the Moerbin [the Sindar name for non-Sindar, whether Elves or Men] were allies of Morgoth, or at least of dubious loyalty, was, however, untrue with regard to the Avari. No Elf of any kind ever sided with Morgoth of free will, though under torture or the stress of great fear, or deluded by lies, they might obey his commands...
The 'Dark-elves', however, often were hostile, and even treacherous, in their dealings with the Sindar and Noldor; and if they fought, as they did when themselves assailed by the Orcs, they never took any open part in the War on the side of the Celbin [non-Avari elves]. They were, it seems, filled with an inherited bitterness against the Eldar, whom they regarded as deserters of their kin, and in Beleriand this feeling was increased by envy (especially of the Amanyar), and by resentment of their lordliness. The belief … that, at the least, they were weaker in resistance to the pressures or lies of Morgoth, if this grievance was concerned, may have been justified…
- HoME Vol 11; Quendi and Eldar: Author's Notes §9

*

The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar [Noldor], who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name Noldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Noldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance.

(...) It is said that of the small clan of the Minyar [Vanyar] none became Avari. The Tatyar were evenly divided. The Nelyar [Teleri] were most reluctant to leave their lakeside homes; but they were very cohesive, and very conscious of the separate unity of their Clan (as they continued to be), so that when it became clear that their chieftains Elwë and Olwë were resolved to depart and would have a large following, many of those among them who had at first joined the Avari went over to the Eldar rather than be separated from their kin. The Noldor indeed asserted that most of the 'Teleri' were at heart Avari, and that only the Eglain really regretted being left in Beleriand.
- HoME 11; Quendi and Eldar