Tolkien General Discussion II

[Flinn]

I think I should read the Myths Transformed

it is worth a good reading ?

[Ngugi]

In case you are interested in gaining deeper knowledge in Tolkien's world and find it appealing with a book that have a scientific, analyzing history study form of and concerning Tolkien and his work rather than the saga form of Silmarillion, then yes indeed
Have you read Unfinished Tales you know what to expect

[Flinn]

I did, so it is similar I guess

next holydays will be spent reading the book, thanks

and Happy S.V. Day to all the girls in TATW ... ehm .. err...

[Elven Warrior]

Happy S.V. Day to all the girls in TATW ... ehm .. err...

yeah were are they again

[Duke of Metz]

It's true, you don't hear much about TATW women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they're often mistaken for TATW men. And this in turn has given rise to the belief that there are no TATW women!

[Jagmodo]

Hi.

Manny times I have been peeking into this and former thread but never have until now written anything here. I didn’t have much time to read through all the pages and my knowledge of the lore is certainly not among the better here so please bear with me. Now I finally have some free time (one exam less) so I would like to ask few questions. My apologies if those questions were completely answered before and there is no point to discuss it any further here. In that case please direct me to the page with answers or summarise it. Thanks.

- What was the function of the Stone of Erech? Is there something special about it; certain power? It was transported from the Númenor so it must have been of some value because of its size and weight. Especially if it was transported in the moment of Akallabêth when The Faithfull could take with them only the most necessarily belongings. Otherwise, if it was only an ordinary black stone ball then it would have no sense because it is enough rocks in Gondor to chisel similar landmark. Is it possible that it was due to the power of the Stone combined with the curse of Isildur that the Oathbreakers (and apparently their horses too?) couldn’t pass to Halls of Mandos? Is that the power of the Stone, possibly forgotten in the later years of the Third Age?

- I’m not exactly sure about staffs Istari carried about... Were they really the object that somehow “channels” the power to them or only of symbolic meaning? Did the destruction of Saruman’s staff leave him crippled for most of his power or he was denied of his power by Valar (doubtful?)? Where there any power in the staff alone?

- If Valar were strong enough to raise Numenor from the sea why didn’t they prevent drowning of Beleriand. It was they after all who caused it and seemingly it wasn’t nearly as catastrophic as drowning of Númenor because there was time to evacuate (for good and bad side too).

- By the way, what do you think happened to Maglor in the end? Did he survived in the later ages of Arda lamenting around shores; passed in Aman (not likely because he would most likely hunt Eärendil across the sky ) or overwhelmed by grief made a suicide and is waiting in the Halls of of Mandos?

- In the initial stages of the Dwarven civilisation there were of course no trade agreements and most likely have to pass some time to perfect their craft regardless their natural talent. How do you think they survived then? My guess is that they were hunters-gatherers but how that fits with the fact that they lived underground? I assume they must always had hunting parties in the “outside world” but could they sustained others like that? Thorin was outside when Smaug occupied Erebor. I think they never reached agricultural revolution because of their lifestyle.

- And at the end what do you think about the economy of the Rivendell? How did they sustained themselves? From the Hobbit it seems that it was full of lazy bums that just sit on the trees all day and bother people by singing teasing songs...

Well, I guess that is more than enough questions for the first time...

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Hi.

Manny times I have been peeking into this and former thread but never have until now written anything here. I didn’t have much time to read through all the pages and my knowledge of the lore is certainly not among the better here so please bear with me. Now I finally have some free time (one exam less) so I would like to ask few questions. My apologies if those questions were completely answered before and there is no point to discuss it any further here. In that case please direct me to the page with answers or summarise it. Thanks.

- What was the function of the Stone of Erech? Is there something special about it; certain power? It was transported from the Númenor so it must have been of some value because of its size and weight. Especially if it was transported in the moment of Akallabêth when The Faithfull could take with them only the most necessarily belongings. Otherwise, if it was only an ordinary black stone ball then it would have no sense because it is enough rocks in Gondor to chisel similar landmark. Is it possible that it was due to the power of the Stone combined with the curse of Isildur that the Oathbreakers (and apparently their horses too?) couldn’t pass to Halls of Mandos? Is that the power of the Stone, possibly forgotten in the later years of the Third Age?

- I’m not exactly sure about staffs Istari carried about... Were they really the object that somehow “channels” the power to them or only of symbolic meaning? Did the destruction of Saruman’s staff leave him crippled for most of his power or he was denied of his power by Valar (doubtful?)? Where there any power in the staff alone?

- If Valar were strong enough to raise Numenor from the sea why didn’t they prevent drowning of Beleriand. It was they after all who caused it and seemingly it wasn’t nearly as catastrophic as drowning of Númenor because there was time to evacuate (for good and bad side too).

- By the way, what do you think happened to Maglor in the end? Did he survived in the later ages of Arda lamenting around shores; passed in Aman (not likely because he would most likely hunt Eärendil across the sky ) or overwhelmed by grief made a suicide and is waiting in the Halls of of Mandos?

- In the initial stages of the Dwarven civilisation there were of course no trade agreements and most likely have to pass some time to perfect their craft regardless their natural talent. How do you think they survived then? My guess is that they were hunters-gatherers but how that fits with the fact that they lived underground? I assume they must always had hunting parties in the “outside world” but could they sustained others like that? Thorin was outside when Smaug occupied Erebor. I think they never reached agricultural revolution because of their lifestyle.

- And at the end what do you think about the economy of the Rivendell? How did they sustained themselves? From the Hobbit it seems that it was full of lazy bums that just sit on the trees all day and bother people by singing teasing songs...

Well, I guess that is more than enough questions for the first time...

I am of the theory that Eru himself empowered the curse as only he knows where Men go after they die.

The staff I would call more of a symbol of an Istar.Think of it like a crown to a King.A crown doesn't give a King magical powers to rule, but is a symbol of his power.However, it seems to have been of some importance greater than a symbol, as Saruman seemed to be weakened when it was broken.

Maglor most likely survived, lamenting until the Dagor Dagorath.

They might have grown some plants in conjuction to being hunter-gatherers.The Petty-Dwarves of Amon Rudh seemed to eat some strange root which sounds like a potato.

As for Rivendell, it did probably have enough space to grow plants to support itself.It didn't have a particularly large amount of people living there.

[conon394]

- And at the end what do you think about the economy of the Rivendell? How did they sustained themselves? From the Hobbit it seems that it was full of lazy bums that just sit on the trees all day and bother people by singing teasing songs...

The Noldor don't need much food production...

In an essay that is in the History of Middle Earth JRRT says that the same grain that they brought from the west from which they make Lembas also provides the straw to weave baskets that protect any food from rot, vermin or bugs etc. Thus a Noldor city state like Rivendell needs only a very small amount of production compared to even the modern world.

Typical JRRT really - to worry about how and why hidden Elvish cities could survive with no Iowa or Ukraine to feed them.

I am of the theory that Eru himself empowered the curse as only he knows where Men go after they die.

I think I would disagree a bit here. I don't think actively or maybe not....

Oaths are profoundly solemn affairs in the world JRRT made and they more often than not hold deadly power for good or ill. In fact one of my personal biggest bits of anger with PJ is that he made Pippen an Oath Breaker - but in any case...

First The men of Numenor do magic 'Magic' Stuff - Swords that kill Nazgul Seats of Seeing, walls that defy Ents, and they produce Seers etc. An Oath from the Men of Mountains would have been vital to the security of Gondor and so a good use of Magic rock saved from the downfall. Given how the Oath with Rohan was made:

'This oath shall stand in memory of the glory of the Land of the Star, and of the faith of Elendil the Faithful, in the keeping
of those who sit upon the thrones of the West and of the One who is above all thrones for ever.'

Since we know Eru does enter into the Arda when he chooses to too one wonders if the Dead like the sons of Faenor were simply unwilling to try and ask Eru for forgiveness directly - the Noldor trapped by their own assumptions of how complete their knowledge was and the men by their own fear and believing the lies of S.

Of course the other option is just Isildur was one bad-ass mofo and his kids never screwed up when they said they promised to take the trash out...

[RuleBritannia]

Yet one I missed ^^

Tulkas is the physichally strongest, but is not counted among the greater Valar
He tipped the balance in the first war, as the combination of the Valar and their Maiar then became to great for Melkor alone, but it is at this time not stated that Tulkas could defeat Melkor alone only trough strenght.
That he could do so later the last quote in post 817 presumably explain.

And this, according to what I've read, and on the subject of Sauron, was one element where Sauron disagreed with his master and strove later for alliances/pawns of power, rather than pitting yourself against everything like Melkor had. Melkor not only lost power by the beginning of the War of Wrath, but he'd put himself against the entirety of the older great powers.

But hey, he really gave them a beating in the War, to his credit.

[Garriath]

Hey, Jagmodo,

First off, great questions.

- I’m not exactly sure about staffs Istari carried about... Were they really the object that somehow “channels” the power to them or only of symbolic meaning? Did the destruction of Saruman’s staff leave him crippled for most of his power or he was denied of his power by Valar (doubtful?)? Where there any power in the staff alone?

I'm actually quite comfortable in saying that the staffs were more than mere symbols. Whenever Gandalf uses magic, his staff is described as being the way he enacts it (shattering the bridge of Khazad-Dum, bringing Theodeon back into the light, even lighting the pine-cones on fire iirc, etc.). The breaking of Gandalf's and Saruman's staffs are both highlighted as critical moments, and the statement that Saruman, after losing his staff, "still has his voice," implies that he has lost his other powers.

It's Hama, Theoden's door-ward, that actually directly voices the more-than-symbolic power of the wizard's staff. He asks Gandalf to surrender his staff before entering the Golden Hall, and Gandalf protests, claiming to be too old to walk without it. Hama responds, "the staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age."

- By the way, what do you think happened to Maglor in the end? Did he survived in the later ages of Arda lamenting around shores; passed in Aman (not likely because he would most likely hunt Eärendil across the sky ) or overwhelmed by grief made a suicide and is waiting in the Halls of of Mandos?

Fun question. I feel like Maglor rejected the idea of suicide when he didn't follow Maedhros into the pit. I also feel like his punishment was his eternal life of guilt wandering Middle-Earth. An early death would be to deny him his vindication.

Though, if you're me, you play the fantastic Mount and Blade mod the Last Days of the Third Age, and roleplay Maglor's return to fighting the Shadow, and his own redemption, by taking the war to Sauron at Dol Guldur and at the Black Gate itself. It makes for a hell of a fun time . Though I don't think it's what Tolkien had in mind...

[Flinn]

yeah were are they again

we should ask Watson!

It's true, you don't hear much about TATW women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they're often mistaken for TATW men. And this in turn has given rise to the belief that there are no TATW women!

[Ngugi]

And this, according to what I've read, and on the subject of Sauron, was one element where Sauron disagreed with his master and strove later for alliances/pawns of power, rather than pitting yourself against everything like Melkor had. Melkor not only lost power by the beginning of the War of Wrath, but he'd put himself against the entirety of the older great powers.

But hey, he really gave them a beating in the War, to his credit.

I see what you're getting at, and do belive that may be right if only because Sauron knew he could not contend with the Valar, however Melkor/Morgoth did gather allies and that on a much more successful level than Sauron can ever be acknowledged to done.
Melkor got a lot of Maiar to join his side, among who named or classified we can count Sauron himself, the Balrogs, Ungolianth if also just for periods, the Dragons, the Boldogs and presumably werewolves, the 'spirits of shadow' who were sent against Tirion and Melkor is known to tried to get Arien to his side - and Melkor put trust in strenght in numbers, not only himself;

And Melkor knew of an that was done, for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause; and far off in the darkness he was filled with hatred, being jealous of the work of his peers, whom he desired to make subject to himself. Therefore he gathered to himself spirits out of the halls of Eä that he had perverted to his service, and he deemed himself strong.

... But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared;
- SIlmarillion; In the Beginning of Days

I can honestly not recall a single 'power' who Sauron managed to get on his side, beside unconfirmed speculations that some of his servants were Boldogs and then there is the spiders of Mirkwood perhaps.
Now, if there is any source that concerns how Sauron thought the situation should be handled instead of how Melkor did it at the peak of his power, or assumed peak of power until his captivity, then I missed that completly mind you hehe

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Hey, Jagmodo,

First off, great questions.



I'm actually quite comfortable in saying that the staffs were more than mere symbols. Whenever Gandalf uses magic, his staff is described as being the way he enacts it (shattering the bridge of Khazad-Dum, bringing Theodeon back into the light, even lighting the pine-cones on fire iirc, etc.). The breaking of Gandalf's and Saruman's staffs are both highlighted as critical moments, and the statement that Saruman, after losing his staff, "still has his voice," implies that he has lost his other powers.

It's Hama, Theoden's door-ward, that actually directly voices the more-than-symbolic power of the wizard's staff. He asks Gandalf to surrender his staff before entering the Golden Hall, and Gandalf protests, claiming to be too old to walk without it. Hama responds, "the staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age."



Fun question. I feel like Maglor rejected the idea of suicide when he didn't follow Maedhros into the pit. I also feel like his punishment was his eternal life of guilt wandering Middle-Earth. An early death would be to deny him his vindication.

Though, if you're me, you play the fantastic Mount and Blade mod the Last Days of the Third Age, and roleplay Maglor's return to fighting the Shadow, and his own redemption, by taking the war to Sauron at Dol Guldur and at the Black Gate itself. It makes for a hell of a fun time . Though I don't think it's what Tolkien had in mind...

That sounds pretty awesome.But on the Gandalf part, I say that as the White, he didn't rely on it, and seemed to have powers without it.


The Pyre of Denethor wrote:
‘But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house…’

[conon394]

I see what you're getting at, and do belive that may be right if only because Sauron knew he could not contend with the Valar, however Melkor/Morgoth did gather allies and that on a much more successful level than Sauron can ever be acknowledged to done.

Although of course I don't he saw then as allies, merely tools

I can honestly not recall a single 'power' who Sauron managed to get on his side, beside unconfirmed speculations that some of his servants were Boldogs and then there is the spiders of Mirkwood perhaps.

don't forget Saruman.

[Poosticks7]

And he was trying to talk Smaug around until some git shot him.

Also he kind of had Shelob on side, sort of, almost, as long as you don't mention it to her directly.

You could argue that the Balrog might have been his pal.

And then there is all sorts of speculation about what was happening in the East. Maybe he had some powerful mates there.

[conon394]

And he was trying to talk Smaug around until some git shot him.

There is no evidence of that only Gandalf's theory. Samug certainly does not behave like he had any interests but his own.

Also he kind of had Shelob on side, sort of, almost, as long as you don't mention it to her directly.

But you get the impression that it is chance she is there - comming before S and not even drawn there for example, and she certainly did not act positively for Sauron.

You could argue that the Balrog might have been his pal.

I don't think so the Balrog fails to do too many things you would expect if he were actively a pal. I wonder if Sauron was really any better informed of what was there than Gandalf.

[Ngugi]

@ Garriath
Not always so, concerning the staff;

He gathered the huge pinecones from the branches of his tree. Then he set one alight with bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing down among the circle of the wolves.
- The Hobbit

In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.
`Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!' he cried.
There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light.
- FotR; A Journey in the Dark

But now the dark swooping shadows were aware of the newcomer. One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgûl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away;
- RotK; The Siege of Gondor

I do not say the staffs are pointless, they are involved to many times, but I have a hard time summorize them to anything else than a tool that help direct magic powers, like a "lightning rod" perhaps, while all the magic is due to the wizards themselves being Maiar.
As for example a random bloke couldn't just pick a staff up and wield any kind of magic to all my knowledge. I however guess they could work like the Rings of Power;

The ... power (of all the rings alike) ... they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor...
- letter 131

don't forget Saruman.

True, as well as possibly the two Blue; the latter two are uncertain and in the first I tend to be more aligned to focus on his solo adventures, as he tried to get the Ring for himself both before and under Sauron's apperent overlordship, but least Saruman should be acknowledged

However he and Smaug had not talked poostick', that was only Gandalf's fear it could come to pass.
That the Balrog was in leauge with Sauron was an early intention in the script from Tolkien's side but it was more and more worked out of it till no mention at all, signalating to me the concept was dropped just as it was dropped that the Balrog would been hiding in Mordor first and but later come to Moria

EDIT: Shelob was not allied to Sauron, they simply accepted each others existance such speaking;

But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness (...)

And as for Sauron: he knew where she lurked. It pleased him that she should dwell there hungry but unabated in malice, a more sure watch upon that ancient path into his land than any other that his skill could have devised. And Orcs, they were useful slaves, but he had them in plenty. If now and again Shelob caught them to stay her appetite, she was welcome: he could spare them. And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he calls her, but she owns him not) Sauron would send her prisoners that he had no better uses for: he would have them driven to her hole, and report brought back to him of the play she made.
So they both lived, delighting in their own devices, and feared no assault, nor wrath, nor any end of their wickedness. Never yet had any fly escaped from Shelob's webs, and the greater now was her rage and hunger.
- TTT; Shelob's Lair

[Poosticks7]

Okay I must admit I was being silly.

Although talking to Smaug was probably on Sauron's to do list.

He might have been doing the same with Balrog. When he sent the Mordor Uruks he sent a little note saying 'Here are some pals for you to hang out with, do what you want with them. Call me.'

Same with Shelob.

And Saruman.

I just realised all the big bads of the Third Age had names starting with S except the Balrog. I wonder if his name was Sid.

Okay I should actually post something sensible now. Erm...Er. Nope haven't got anything .

[RuleBritannia]

Sauron had the kings and tribes of the East on his side. He corrupted Saruman and had wolves, spiders, bats, etc. at Dol-Guldur, then he also had the Nine Nazgul whom he formed from former kings. He also had at least one Balrog and then Shelob. He almost got Numenor to attack Valar on his command. Though Melkor had of course been far more powerful and had far much more under his command, Melkor had few external allies outside of those he corrupted. Sauron, I think, believed actual, reliable alliances were more efficient. However, he was not a Vala nor did he have the same amount of time Melkor had to amass his forces and power. In the long term, however, if Sauron had not lost the War of the Ring, I think he could've assembled a force similar to that of Melkor, but it would take a massively long time: Melkor would probably have made his return by the time Sauron amassed such a force.

[Zimmy]

Hey all, while re-reading the book, on the Journey in the Dark chapter, when the company is before the Doors of Durin, Gandalf says he once knew every spell in the tongues of Elves, Men, and Orcs.

I'm wondering about the spells of Men and Orcs, what power did they truly possess? Maybe the Men of Numenor had spells, such as the swords forged for the bane of Angmar, but I wonder about Orcs, what could they do?

Or is Gandalf just referring to the fact that he could speak the Black Speech?