Tolkien General Discussion II

[Thangaror]

It's not at all correct. It displays places that existed at different times all at once, and therefore things got moved around to the wrong location.

[Krieglord]

It's not at all correct. It displays places that existed at different times all at once, and therefore things got moved around to the wrong location.

So geographically its not accurate? okay was just curious

Obviously the place names and everything are mashed together

[RuleBritannia]

Morgoth wanted to conquer and rule by destruction. However, this meant he had very, very few allies himself, whereas the Vala amassed all the "Good" forces they could to stop him, culminating in the bloody War of Wrath where Morgoth was finally beaten. Sauron thought Morgoth's fatal mistake was putting himself against too many enemies without enough to back himself up, which is why Sauron focused on amassing military power far more secretively, and fighting and conquering with persuasion, corruption, or coercion, using his immense military force to back his words up when necessary. A perfect example is his work in Numenor. He allowed himself the shame of being captured in order to prompt a war between Numenor and Valar, resulting in Numenor's destruction by flooding before the war could begin. Sauron also saw the Easterlings and Haradrim as allies and pawns, not as targets.

[Nastrael]

I was under the impression that Melkor and Sauron's wars and destruction were just means to an end. i was pretty convinced that they both wanted the same thing, which was to recreate the world in their own image, and in order to do so they had to eliminate the opposition through said destruction. Sauron in particular (who was a follower of Aule)was obsessed with order and uniformity, so it wouldn't make sense for him to want to keep the world in turmoil after he had conquered it. it seems more fitting that he was just using chaos as a tool to pave the way for him to start from scratch.

[RuleBritannia]

Sauron wasn't pure chaotic evil. His love of architecture and desire for order (his order, that is) shows he had motive. It's very likely that Morgoth had conditioned Sauron into legitimately believing the Vala were the true villains and had oppressed himself and Sauron, so it's possible Sauron didn't consider himself evil, but realistic, and fighting those who killed his master. It's not entirely unlikely that Sauron saw himself as the actual "good guy".

[Nastrael]

that's beside the point though XD

[Mikail Mengsk]

Wasn't mentioned somewhere that Sauron built temples where the Dark Men worshipped Melkor?

Also, Sauron definitely knew what was "good" and what was "evil"; maybe not in the first days of his service under Melkor, but in the end he surely knows he was on the evil side, he simply didn't care anymore. He wanted to rule, that's all.

[muller227]

Sauron wasn't pure chaotic evil. His love of architecture and desire for order (his order, that is) shows he had motive. It's very likely that Morgoth had conditioned Sauron into legitimately believing the Vala were the true villains and had oppressed himself and Sauron, so it's possible Sauron didn't consider himself evil, but realistic, and fighting those who killed his master. It's not entirely unlikely that Sauron saw himself as the actual "good guy".

Sauron and Melkor operate under different motivations, Melkor is almost purely destructive in his motivations, a sort of nihilistic madness I think is the term used too describe him. He hates all that the Vala create feeling they usurped his rightful place as the mightiest by far of the Valar, this hatred of course passes onto the Children of Eru.

That he drew many spirits into his service and corrupted them away from the Music displays the potency of his original spirit before it became dispersed.

Sauron whatever his faults is no Atheist, he understands the proper order, even respects it. The downfall of Numenor actually is his greatest victory. Not just because Numenor is gone, that is actually his lesser victory. The greater victory is the removal of Aman from the circles of the world and the active participation of the Valar becoming extremely limited.

From his viewpoint I could see how he would see himself as the rightful ruler, for an Age he is the major divine power in ME. His desire for dominace and rule is one in which I think the reappearance of Melkor would please him not in the least. Sauron always had a way of being absent when crap hit the fan for his boss.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Sauron and Melkor operate under different motivations, Melkor is almost purely destructive in his motivations, a sort of nihilistic madness I think is the term used too describe him. He hates all that the Vala create feeling they usurped his rightful place as the mightiest by far of the Valar, this hatred of course passes onto the Children of Eru.

That he drew many spirits into his service and corrupted them away from the Music displays the potency of his original spirit before it became dispersed.

Sauron whatever his faults is no Atheist, he understands the proper order, even respects it. The downfall of Numenor actually is his greatest victory. Not just because Numenor is gone, that is actually his lesser victory. The greater victory is the removal of Aman from the circles of the world and the active participation of the Valar becoming extremely limited.

From his viewpoint I could see how he would see himself as the rightful ruler, for an Age he is the major divine power in ME. His desire for dominace and rule is one in which I think the reappearance of Melkor would please him not in the least. Sauron always had a way of being absent when crap hit the fan for his boss.

If we could describr Melkor/Morgoth in RPG terms, he would be Chatotic Evil. Sauron on the other hand was more complicated.I believe that an engineer viewing Arda as a thing to be fixed and ordered properly would be a good analogy.He didn't want to eradicate all life.He wanted to rule in what he would view as a utopia.In such a place, I would expect all free will to be eradicated, and everyone living under what Sauron would view as good.

[Ngugi]

[General note: as usual I provide the quotes not only to make it a scientific argumentation for my own sake (not fond arguing unfounded) but also for any readers to make up their minds on the material, so it just not come off as opinion one can not evaluate themselves]


@ RuleBritannia
Don' forget this was the way of Melkor as well, and we have no reason to belive his destructive side put others off beside from moral consideration in the good or evil to betray Eru.
Even our 'orderly' and very powerful Sauron found no destructive side to put him off, only admiration is presented

But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts.
- Valaquenta

(It was the apperent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him)
- Myths Transformed; VII; i

While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored.
- Myths Transformed; IX

More of Maiar recruted after entering Eä for example Morgoth's Ring; Ainulinalë tell about.

According to Myths Transformed Morgoth's first time as prisoner was partly a scheme to get permission to Aman, just as Sauron later repeated to get to Númenor.
Melkor when free could still have a fair form (which Sauorn after Númenor's destruction could not; see Akallabeth) and could fool many, even a (for sure blue eyed) Manwë of his good intentions, yet he did not manage to all our knowledge recute any ainu to his side, and only to fool Qunedi who did not knew him well enough at that time.
To presume Sauron could go over there and not only not get locked in with the key tossed away for deeds under three Ages but also convince powers there to sunder themselves and/or perhaps even join him, when he had not even managed to get Dragons [and possibly the Balrog] in ME to his side is a neat 'What If' but unfounded in lore.

Sauron and Melkor operate under different motivations, Melkor is almost purely destructive in his motivations, a sort of nihilistic madness I think is the term used too describe him. He hates all that the Vala create feeling they usurped his rightful place as the mightiest by far of the Valar, this hatred of course passes onto the Children of Eru.

That he drew many spirits into his service and corrupted them away from the Music displays the potency of his original spirit before it became dispersed.

Sauron whatever his faults is no Atheist, he understands the proper order, even respects it. The downfall of Numenor actually is his greatest victory. Not just because Numenor is gone, that is actually his lesser victory. The greater victory is the removal of Aman from the circles of the world and the active participation of the Valar becoming extremely limited.

From his viewpoint I could see how he would see himself as the rightful ruler, for an Age he is the major divine power in ME. His desire for dominace and rule is one in which I think the reappearance of Melkor would please him not in the least. Sauron always had a way of being absent when crap hit the fan for his boss.

We shall be careful to only stare us blind on Myths Transformed; VII; i where Tolkien discuss the destructive nihilistic side of Melkor, because he developed this and gave Morgoth a more complex and less destructive side (my red and underlining)

Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in ’kingship’, and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.
- Morgoth’s Ring; Myths Transformed; VII; ii

However I concur that Sauron belived he had won Middle-earth for himself trough the destruction of Númenor:

He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the 'change of the world' at the downfall of Númenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath. If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose.
- Myths Transformed; VII; i

Wasn't mentioned somewhere that Sauron built temples where the Dark Men worshipped Melkor?

Also, Sauron definitely knew what was "good" and what was "evil"; maybe not in the first days of his service under Melkor, but in the end he surely knows he was on the evil side, he simply didn't care anymore. He wanted to rule, that's all.

The only temple to Melkor on sauron's behalf was the one on Númenor but even there he by time managed to get them to worship himself as God, as he did in Middle-earth;

But Sauron caused to be built upon the hill in the midst of the city of the Númenóreans, Armenelos the Golden, a mighty temple;
... For there was an altar of fire in the midst of the temple, and in the topmost of the dome there was a louver, whence there issued a great smoke. And the first fire upon the altar Sauron kindled with the hewn wood of Nimloth, and it crackled and was consumed; but men marvelled at the reek that went up from it, so that the land lay under a cloud for seven days, until slowly it passed into the west.
Thereafter the fire and smoke went up without ceasing; for the power of Sauron daily increased, and in that temple, with spilling of blood and torment and great wickedness, men made sacrifice to Melkor that he should release them from Death. And most often from among the Faithful they chose their victims; yet never openly on the charge that they would not worship Melkor, the Giver of Freedom, rather was cause sought against them that they hated the King and were his rebels, or that they plotted against their kin, devising lies and poisons.
- Silm.; Akallabeth

Then some few would repent for a season, but others hardened their hearts, and they shook their fists at heaven, saying: 'The Lords of the West have plotted against us. They strike first. The next blow shall be ours!' These words the King himself spoke, but they were devised by Sauron.
Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would.
- Silm.; Akallabeth

Sauron was evil already during the First Age;

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself.
- Valaquenta

In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance, and he became the greatest and most trusted of the servants of the Enemy, and the most perilous, for he could assume many forms, and for long if he willed he could still appear noble and beautiful, so as to deceive all but the most wary.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

As well aware of Eru he knew he was on the 'bad' side from scratch when joining Melkor, he was not dumb.
According to Myths Transfomed; IX; Orcs it was Sauron who finished the work to make the Orcs that his master had initiated (but was imprisoned in Mandos for much of the time), and we know what Eru though of that deed;

Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. ... This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar.
- Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

"I obeyed orders" isn't much of an excuse
The only times we in recorded history have reasons to ponder weither Sauron had good in him of significance is when the First Age end and when he turns to the Elves and help them make their rings.
The first case we are only hinted he may been honestly regretted his evil, but only out of fear of punishment, which I at best could deem is a 'nautral' stance, not a good; and he chose not to because of pride and the habit of power, making least me struck this occasion out (see Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)
The other comes from a quote from Letter 153 discussing Sauron's contact with the Elves;

Sauron was of course not 'evil' in origin. He was a 'spirit' corrupted by the Prime Dark Lord (the Prime sub-creative Rebel) Morgoth. He was given an opportunity of repentance, when Morgoth was overcome, but could not face the humiliation of recantation, and suing for pardon; and so his temporary turn to good and 'benevolence' ended in a greater relapse, until he became the main representative of Evil of later ages. But at the beginning of the Second Age he was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape – and was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all 'reformers' who want to hurry up with 'reconstruction' and 'reorganization' are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up. The particular branch of the High-Elves concerned, the Noldor or Loremasters, were always on the side of 'science and technology', as we should call it: they wanted to have the knowledge that Sauron genuinely had, and those of Eregion refused the warnings of Gilgalad and Elrond. The particular 'desire' of the Eregion Elves – an 'allegory' if you like of a love of machinery, and technical devices – is also symbolised by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.

However this has to be put in relationship with our other sources;

c. 500 Sauron begins to stir again in Middle-earth.
- Appendix B

He was the only son and third child of Tar-Elendil, and he was born in the year 543. He ruled for 143 years, and surrendered the sceptre in 883; he died in 942. ... He resigned to his son, suddenly and long before due time, as a stroke of policy, in troubles that arose, owing to the disquiet of Gil-galad in Lindon, when he first became aware that an evil spirit, hostile to Eldar and Dúnedain, was stirring in Middle-earth.
- UT; The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor

But eventually Galadriel became aware that Sauron again, as in the ancient days of the captivity of Melkor [see The Silmarillion], had been left behind. Or rather, since Sauron had as yet no single name, and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit, prime servant of Melkor, she perceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world, and that it seemed to proceed from a source further to the East, beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains.
Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards, about the year 700 of the Second Age...
- UT; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

7 In an isolated and undateable note it is said that although the name Sauron is used earlier than this in the Tale of Years, his name, implying identity with the great lieutenant of Morgoth in The Silmarillion, was not actually known until about the year 1600 of the Second Age, the time of the forging of the One Ring. The mysterious power of hostility, to Elves and Edain, was perceived soon after the year 500, and among the Númenóreans first by Aldarion towards the end of the eighth century (about the time when he established the haven of Vinyalondë). But it had no known centre. Sauron endeavoured to keep distinct his two sides: enemy and tempter. When he came among the Noldor he adopted a specious fair form (a kind of simulated anticipation of the later Istari and a fair name: Artano "high-smith," or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë. ...
- UT; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Notes

And in the south and in the further east Men multiplied; and most of them turned to evil, for Sauron was at work.
Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; and his pride grew apace. He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Númenor who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth; but for long he dissembled his mind and concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart.
Men he found the easiest to sway of all the peoples of the Earth; but long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power; and he went far and wide among them, and his hue was still that of one both fair and wise.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

We thus know that Sauron as an evil force at work was detected ca year 500 SA, that he hated the Eldar and disliked the Númenóreans, he had worked to make humans evil and had the intent to make Elves his servants to, when he turned to Noldor again; rendering letter 153 obsolete as source - beside the possibility that if Sauron turned good for a while this was prior to year 500 and nothing of it is ever recorded.

[RuleBritannia]

It's not so much a physical turn of "Good", but the idea of being "Good". I think the hatred Melkor and his subsequent followers felt for the creations of Eru and the Vala were spawned by jealousy and the feeling of inadequacy. Melkor was arguably the second-most powerful Valar at the outset, though, so his jealousy motive was less justifiable, but I'm sure Sauron was indoctrinated by him, and considered himself to be right in what he did. Though he may not have acted like it, it's possible Sauron thought his actions were entirely justified and leading to a better future for Middle Earth.

[Aikanár]

Melkor was arguably the second-most powerful Valar at the outset,

Could you provide the source of which you base your rating off?

[Nastrael]

It's not so much a physical turn of "Good", but the idea of being "Good". I think the hatred Melkor and his subsequent followers felt for the creations of Eru and the Vala were spawned by jealousy and the feeling of inadequacy. Melkor was arguably the second-most powerful Valar at the outset, though, so his jealousy motive was less justifiable, but I'm sure Sauron was indoctrinated by him, and considered himself to be right in what he did. Though he may not have acted like it, it's possible Sauron thought his actions were entirely justified and leading to a better future for Middle Earth.

Melkor was the most powerful, period. Eru says so himself.

[Mikail Mengsk]

I agree.

[Flinn]

IIRC it is said in the Silmarillion that Melkor and Manwe were "brothers" in the mind of Illuvatar and that Melkor was little bit more powerful than Manwe.

Ngugi will help us

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

IIRC it is said in the Silmarillion that Melkor and Manwe were "brothers" in the mind of Illuvatar and that Melkor was little bit more powerful than Manwe.

Ngugi will help us

Actually, Melkor was as powerful as all the other Valar together early on.

[Ngugi]

To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.
... Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor;
... And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold."
- Silmarillion; Ainulindalë

Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes.
- Silmarillion; Valaquenta

Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature ... The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power). (He was to make / devise / begin; Manwë (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.)
Later, he must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined. Note that in the early age of Arda he was alone able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat.
The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence. But Melkor had already progressed some way toward becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents'. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a power-level with the Valar. The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So they come at last to Utumno itself and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact.
- Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed; VI Melkor Morgoth

Edit: as Feanaro say, noted by Tolkien in the last quote

[Garriath]

Dammit, ninja'ed by Ngugi .

Still, for what it's worth,

But when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place. And of these Melkor was the chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music.

- Silmarillion; Ainulindalë

Note, though, that this might and power is a little subjective, and fails to explain Tulkas's irritating habit of kicking Melkor's ass in wrestling matches...

[Ngugi]

Yet one I missed ^^

Tulkas is the physichally strongest, but is not counted among the greater Valar

Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, who is surnamed Astaldo, the Valiant.
... Among them Nine were of chief power and reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwë and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë.
- Valaquenta; Of the valar

He tipped the balance in the first war, as the combination of the Valar and their Maiar then became to great for Melkor alone, but it is at this time not stated that Tulkas could defeat Melkor alone only trough strenght.
That he could do so later the last quote in post 817 presumably explain.

[Anakarsis]

"Powerful" is not the same as "strong". Melkor has power over every thing of Arda and that was why he was "the most powerful" of the Valar. He could not beat any of the Valar in their special areas of control, but could contest in all of them at once and using much more variety of resources. Tulkas was just the "strongest" (and not just by muscle, it is said that his laugh could dissipate any storm or darkness) . Tulkas (and may be Orome and Mandos, because of their fury and dread, respectively) could probably beat him in any one-to-one direct combat, whatever form this take, but that does not means preventing him to achieve his objectives. Melkor simply was able to do many things that Tulkas could not, that would give him victory even if they does not end up with Tulkas physically defeated. The episode of the destruction of the trees is a good example. Melkor achieves his greatest victory and Tulkas was present and unable to do anything, even as he could be capable of beating Morgoth.