Tolkien General Discussion II

[RedGuard]

Sauron the lord of gifts yes.

funny thing though is that Khamul the easterling a ringwraith used to be as his name suggests a man of Rhun, and even knowing that the present Khan of Rhun followed in his footsteps down the same foolish path.

maybe the Haradrim are just so over confident about thier mumakill that they have nothing to fear. i mean come on look at this guy

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/M%C3%BBmakil_Mah%C3%BBd

edit: btw just realized that wiki page reads like it was written by a three year old

[Kiliç Alì]

You must remember that "Harad" and "Rhun" were not single states as Gondor or Rohan were, they were more some federations of tribes.

Not so sure about Rhun, but there were some Haradrim tribes fighting on the "good men" side, even if they were not Gondor allies. It is stated/hinted somewhere in LOTR that Denethor saw the huge Haradrim armies and tought they had all pledged their allegaince to Sauron, but that was false - Sauron was in fact misleading his toughts.

[RedGuard]

You must remember that "Harad" and "Rhun" were not single states as Gondor or Rohan were, they were more some federations of tribes.

Not so sure about Rhun, but there were some Haradrim tribes fighting on the "good men" side, even if they were not Gondor allies. It is stated/hinted somewhere in LOTR that Denethor saw the huge Haradrim armies and tought they had all pledged their allegaince to Sauron, but that was false - Sauron was in fact misleading his toughts.

through the palantir that he supposedly has?

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

Sauron the lord of gifts yes.

funny thing though is that Khamul the easterling a ringwraith used to be as his name suggests a man of Rhun, and even knowing that the present Khan of Rhun followed in his footsteps down the same foolish path.

maybe the Haradrim are just so over confident about thier mumakill that they have nothing to fear. i mean come on look at this guy

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/M%C3%BBmakil_Mah%C3%BBd

edit: btw just realized that wiki page reads like it was written by a three year old

Remember Khamul is a Ringwraith he does not think of his past life as a King of Rhun well maybe he does but he is a loyal servant to Sauron hes only purpose is to do Sauron's bindings and to find the One Ring. Ringwraiths only have that in mind.

[Mhaedros]

The people of Rhun and Harad were firstly divided into clans rather than two empires, presumably with their own feuds. There is no such thing as a khan of Rhun, or emperor of Harad. Most of the peoples of these two areas also see Sauron as a god rather than the betrayed of mankind. They don't have the knowledge of what he has done in the past and even if they did, they wouldn't understand what's so bad about making the Numenoreans go to war to Valinor, as they would have heard of neither places. What they do know is that Gondor is their oldest enemy and that their once mighty empire is reduced very much since the last king died.

I wouldn't say more than a few of the easterlings hate Dale though, they launched their invasion because Sauron told them to.

[Nastrael]

don't forget that the Easterlings and Haradrim were very possibly under Melkor's sway since the First Age, which would explain why they refused to travel west at the behest of the Valar. the seeds of the easterling and southron hatred of the men of the west take root much deeper than we know or can merely make assumptions of.

[Mikail Mengsk]

Harad isn't exactly "Evil", they just really, really hate Gondor. Men along the Anduin had always hated the Haradrim, and vice-versa. A lot of battles were fought long before the Third Age, and both sides won enough victories that they had a deep hate. Harad felt that their borders were intruded and people threatened, the Men on the other side of the Anduin thought the Haradrim were all nothing more than barbaric and plundering. The long-rooted feuds between the Balchoth and Khans of the Rhun area and the Dales are very similar, along with the fights between Dunland and Rohan (though in that case, Rohan was noticeably more at fault).

Sauron was incredibly persuasive and corrupting, and the Haradrim and people of Rhun didn't believe that he would betray him, because he had always treated them well and supported them when the Men of the West did not.

This.

Also, they probably have been filled with propaganda by Sauron for centuries if not millennia.

[smoesville]

Here is an essay on the men of darkness which might be of interest. Also here is another essay on the indigenous peoples of ME.

[RedGuard]

thanks smoesville + Rep. that explained it to a layman like me quite nicely. But maybe a proposal for the third age total war mod?

how about having a men of darkness culture instead of Harad and RHun lumped in to a catch all culture where everything they do has to please sauron? would be interesting to be able to help out mordor but also not have to go to war with men.

then again isnt turning from evil to good already a feature. oh well.

[smoesville]

The main reason for them having the same religion (which is the culture) is so Sauron (the Pope) could call invasions. I agree that it would be better not to lump them all together but game limitations mean you can't really without disabling invasions entirely or else the Men of Darkness would likely be the target of said invasions.

[Ngugi]

In difference to the cultures of other factions the 'Follower' is a religion, although it should be of Sauron, not Morgoth. Unless Sauron changed his ambitions and methods all together since the Second Age (Numenor an exception)
That it is cross-racial is thus natural

[Mr Kriegtooth]

I just wanna announce I got the books ordered, got all 4 for 20$(so I have two copies of the Hobbit..but whatever)

[Ellareth]

Where is Ford of Isen on TATW world map?

I've always thought Ford of Isen was about half way between Isengard and Helm's Deep and thought that Ford of Isen was located between Gap of Rohan and Westfold area in TATW.

But I've seen many posts on the forum referring the bridge in Nan-Curunir as Ford of Isen.

So where is it?
At Nan-Curunir or Gap of Rohan (between Geneard and Foldburg)?

[Mhaedros]

Directly south of Isengard. You can see the river running south-west from Fangorn.

[RuleBritannia]

In difference to the cultures of other factions the 'Follower' is a religion, although it should be of Sauron, not Morgoth. Unless Sauron changed his ambitions and methods all together since the Second Age (Numenor an exception)
That it is cross-racial is thus natural

It'd be too complicated to implement a separate "Followers of Sauron" then "Followers of Morgoth" for the Evil Men and Orcs. In the end, they followed Sauron, who in turn was highly loyal to his master and sought to repair his mistakes and take Middle Earth as his master had.

[smoesville]

I think he meant they should all be followers of Sauron since i doubt anyone 'worshipped' Morgoth as a catholic worships God. They just followed the orders of Sauron.

[Nastrael]

I think he meant they should all be followers of Sauron since i doubt anyone 'worshipped' Morgoth as a catholic worships God. They just followed the orders of Sauron.

plenty of people worshipped Morgoth as a god...more like a pagan god than a Christian god, but that's neither here nor there. granted the amount may have diminished between the first and third ages but there were undoubtedly a few people who would still pay homage to him.

[Ngugi]

I think he meant they should all be followers of Sauron since i doubt anyone 'worshipped' Morgoth as a catholic worships God. They just followed the orders of Sauron.

This
Beside some cases of some kind of direct mental control from the Dark Lords Morgoth dominated the Orcs trough fear

And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery.
- Silmarillion; Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

while they are least sometimes chosen allies of Sauron

‘Yes, to Mordor,’ said Gandalf. ‘Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there.'
- FotR; A Shadow of the Past


`Yes,' said Gorbag. 'But don't count on it. I'm not easy in my mind. As I said, the Big Bosses, ay,' his voice sank almost to a whisper, `ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. Something nearly slipped you say. I say, something has slipped. And we've got to look out. Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks. But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too.'
- TTT; The Choices of Master Samwise

@ Nastrael
Yes, but Sauron was into the game to make himself God

Already in the days of Tar-Minastir, the eleventh King of Númenor, he had fortified the land of Mordor and had built there the Tower of Barad-dûr, and thereafter he strove ever for the dominion of Middle-earth, to become a king over all kings and as a god unto Men.
- Akallabeth

In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and aimed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire.
- Of the Rings of Power and teh Third Age

[Nastrael]

@ Nastrael
Yes, but Sauron was into the game to make himself God

i'm not debating that. just that Melkor was more than likely still worshipped during the Third Age

[Krieglord]

master and sought to repair his mistakes and take Middle Earth as his master had.

I was under the impression Morgoth wanted to destroy where as Sauron just wanted to rule and dominate.


Also anyone know how accurate this map is?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: