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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    Yes, of course. A git who made a new,better writing system that enjoyed universal use
    I should add a brilliant and great git. I am a great fan of Feanor's brilliance, his politics and personal actions not so much. The attack on Alquolonde and the burning of the ships at Losgar are sort of a turn off for me. Not too mention dragging his kids into that perfidious oath. Greatest of all the Elves absolutely, nevertheless I don't like him much.
    Last edited by muller227; January 04, 2013 at 10:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by muller227 View Post
    I should add a brilliant and great git. I am a great fan of Feanor's brilliance, his politics and personal actions not so much. The attack on Alquolonde and the burning of the ships at Losgar are sort of a turn off for me.
    Well, I was quite mad at the time.

    :Tongue
    There was supposed to be a smiley there.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    Well, I was quite mad at the time.

    :Tongue
    There was supposed to be a smiley there.

    The love you bore for your father is a redeeming quality to be sure.

    The three Elder sons have always been my favorites, meaning Maedhros, Fingon and Finrod.
    Last edited by muller227; January 04, 2013 at 10:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @ conon'
    True, but Dwarves of the two other western Houses had also fled Khazad-dûm, and they had less reason to want to take a chance on a return since it was not their original House's mansion.


    I would agree on that he never saw the Balrog, however I belive the Balrog was just inside, after all the Orcs were prepereing a great battle from within and the battle took place outside and the Balrog very potentially was around to make sure no one came in to take what was his from him, and that Dain felt it's "aura" of terror;
    That was held a great feat, for Dáin was then only a stripling in the reckoning of the Dwarves. But long life and many battles lay before him, until old but unbowed he fell at last in the War of the Ring. Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear.
    ...
    'No,' said Dáin. 'You are the father of our Folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter Khazad-dûm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane.' ...
    - Appendix A

    But it was not the trolls that had filled the Elf with terror. The ranks of the orcs had opened, and they crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid. Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.
    - FotR; The Bridge of K'


    @ muller'
    Understand that reading, but I must say I do read it geograpichly since it seems the topic of the text and no population is put emphasis on;
    And following Sirion from north to south there lay upon the right hand in West Beleriand the Forest of Brethil between Sirion and Teiglin, and then the realm of Nargothrond, between Teiglin and Narog. And the River Narog rose in the falls of Ivrin in the southern face of Dor-lómin, and flowed some eighty leagues ere he joined Sirion in Nan-tathren, the Land of Willows. South of Nan-tathren was a region of meads filled with many flowers, where few folk dwelt; and beyond lay the marshes and isles of reed about the mouths of Sirion, and the sands of his delta empty of all living things save birds of the sea.

    But the realm of Nargothrond extended also west of Narog to the River Nenning, that reached the sea at Eglarest; and Finrod became the overlord of all the Elves of Beleriand between Sirion and the sea, save only in the Falas. There dwelt those of the Sindar who still loved ships, and Círdan the shipbuilder was their lord; but between Círdan and Finrod there was friendship and alliance, and with the aid of the Noldor the havens of Brithombar and Eglarest were built anew. Behind their great walls they became fair towns and harbours with quays and piers of stone. Upon the cape west of Eglarest Finrod raised the tower of Barad Nimras to watch the western sea, though needlessly, as it proved; for at no time ever did Morgoth essay to build ships or to make war by sea. Water all his servants shunned, and to the sea none would willingly go nigh, save in dire need. With the aid of the Elves of the Havens some of the folk of Nargothrond built new ships, and they went forth and explored the great Isle of Balar, thinking there to prepare a last refuge, if evil came; but it was not their fate that they should ever dwell there.

    Thus the realm of Finrod was the greatest by far, though he was the youngest of the great lords of the Noldor, Fingolfin, Fingon, and Maedhros, and Finrod Felagund.
    - Silmarillion
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    EDIT: @ Fëanor discussion
    Fëanor was a looney, selfobsorded, overproud ass. One can admire his craftmanship but that do not make an admirable person, only an admirable craftsman, and those two things are far from the same thing.
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 04, 2013 at 10:24 AM.



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  5. #65
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @ngugi

    Certainly I can accept the geography as counterpoint, part of me always wants the Noldor too follow Finrod more than the others in Beleriand, I like him the most so I have my biases, frankly if I was a Noldor he is who I would pick, after him oddly enough it is Maedhros. Coppertop is one confused Noldor, and since I am fairly confused most of the time I like him. Effing Oaths shoulda kicked dad's ass at Losgar.
    Last edited by muller227; January 04, 2013 at 10:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I would agree on that he never saw the Balrog, however I belive the Balrog was just inside, after all the Orcs were prepereing a great battle from within and the battle took place outside and the Balrog very potentially was around to make sure no one came in to take what was his from him, and that Dain felt it's "aura" of terror;
    Fair enough - its one point I would have like JRRT to have put a little more thought into. I mean Gandalf is all worried about Smaug the dragon and the Necromancer but not apparently whatever killed two Dwarven kings and broke Moria [Along with the apparent utter disinterest about the fall of Minas Ithial its one of the two utterly inexplicable gaffs of the supposed Wise White Council]? Again the fact people like Aragorn and Gandolf could pass through Moria kinda shows the Balrog was not exactly up and about.

    I think most critically the fact Balin seems to never have run into it is important to note. The Colony is fine until Sauron takes a turn not the Balrog - its orcs from Dul Guldur that destroy the colony not the Balrog. I would argue its Gandalf that wakes the Balrog with his use of Power, not anything else - he was hiding and waiting and that's it - Gandalf looked like maybe Valar were finally cleaning house.
    Last edited by conon394; January 04, 2013 at 11:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Fair enough - its one point I would have like JRRT to have put a little more thought into. I mean Gandalf is all worried about Smaug the dragon and the Necromancer but not apparently whatever killed two Dwarven kings and broke Moria? Again the fact people like Aragorn and Gandolf could pass through Moria kinda shows the Balrog was not exactly up and about.

    I think most critically the fact Balin seems to never have run into it is important to note. The Colony is fine until Sauron takes a turn not the Balrog - its orcs from Dul Guldur that destroy the colony not the Balrog. I would argue its Gandalf that wakes the Balrog with his use of Power, not anything else - he was hiding and waiting and that's it - Gandalf looked like maybe Valar were finally cleaning house.
    I agree with Conon on this, the Balrog seems to be in wait mode. Nor do I see a Balrog bowing too Sauron. They are near equivalent natures for one thing and second they espouse entirely differnet aspects of Morgoth's cunning and power. Sauron is the deceiver, the Balrogs seem to be destructive power personified. The Balrog I think is waiting for Morgoth, Gandalf and the ring wake him too action, my guess is the ring since Gandalf had passed unmolested before. Not too mention a very odd orc that is far tougher than any other orc we ever see.
    Last edited by muller227; January 04, 2013 at 11:23 AM.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @muller: Maedhros really is confused isn't he? I admire him pretty much unequivocally up until the breaking of the Union. He just inexplicably goes from overall good guy to being more like his brothers, killing Elves left and right. What's the impetus for that? I don't see the reasoning for his rapid change from restraining his brothers to indulging in their silmaril-hunting, revenge-seeking bloodlust.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by muller227 View Post
    I agree with Conon on this, the Balrog seems to be in wait mode. Nor do I see a Balrog bowing too Sauron. They are near equivalent natures for one thing and second they espouse entirely differnet aspects of Morgoth's cunning and power. Sauron is the deceiver, the Balrogs seem to be destructive power personified. The Balrog I think is waiting for Morgoth, Gandalf and the ring wake him too action, my guess is the ring since Gandalf had passed unmolested before. Not too mention a very odd orc that is far tougher than any other orc we ever see.
    Agree. Also, it's possible that also the Ring did "attract" the Balrog for its dark power.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by HeisManziel View Post
    @muller: Maedhros really is confused isn't he? I admire him pretty much unequivocally up until the breaking of the Union. He just inexplicably goes from overall good guy to being more like his brothers, killing Elves left and right. What's the impetus for that? I don't see the reasoning for his rapid change from restraining his brothers to indulging in their silmaril-hunting, revenge-seeking bloodlust.

    The latter description of Maedhros is perhaps not accurate. The burden of the Oath is not something too take lightly in ME. The fate of the Oathbreakers of Erech is not pleasent. Maedhros in fact sends letters both demanding the return of the Silmaril and warning of dire consequences if his demands are not heeded. Simply put the Oath was sworn to Eru and only Eru could release him. Needless too say Eru does not intervene much in the affairs of ME. It is notable that in the first drafts it is Maedhros that renounces the Oath not Maglor. I would argue that in fact Tolkien makes Maedhros more law abiding if one considers the nature of oaths in ME, it is a complicated aspect of Tolkien's work. Elrond's warnings against the taking of oaths too Gimli is not without experience with the terrible consequences oaths demand.

    I would add that in all cases Maedhros and Maglor are portrayed as reluctant in fulfillment of the Oath.
    Last edited by muller227; January 04, 2013 at 02:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    sry if I go a bit oftopic:
    I'm not an expert in elven-history (I read the silmarillion - but I didn't learn it by heart ;-)
    but to add sth. to kings, lords and their followers:

    kings and their successors where never in history indisputable persons.
    people allways turned to the one, they believed more; wether he was the rightful heir or not.
    there are lines that lastet very long because their people (ostly the lords) trustet them and there are lines that even don't go further than one successor.
    if an heir didn't please the people (or the lords) often struggle arose and sooner or later a high lord or general became leader.
    so is it in tolkiens world: there are bloodlines, yes but king is only the one who is acclaimed by (most of) his people.
    that's not really new.

    and mind: there are several types of kingship
    today, if you hear "king" all think of a mighty person, whos will is law.
    but besides absolute monarchy there are different electoral kingships.
    and in the end, think of Tolkien who lived in a constitutional monarchy, where the king has absolutely no power...

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The latter description of Maedhros is perhaps not accurate. The burden of the Oath is not something too take lightly in ME. The fate of the Oathbreakers of Erech is not pleasent. Maedhros in fact sends letters both demanding the return of the Silmaril and warning of dire consequences if his demands are not heeded. Simply put the Oath was sworn to Eru and only Eru could release him. Needless too say Eru does not intervene much in the affairs of ME. It is notable that in the first drafts it is Maedhros that renounces the Oath not Maglor. I would argue that in fact Tolkien makes Maedhros more law abiding if one considers the nature of oaths in ME, it is a complicated aspect of Tolkien's work. Elrond's warnings against the taking of oaths too Gimli is not without experience with the terrible consequences oaths demand.
    Yes, you are absolutely correct in regards to the overbearing power of oaths. What I'm asking is why did Maedhros not show the same zealotry towards its fulfillment as his brothers beforehand, and why was his shift so sudden and violent? Is it just that his resistance to the oath's demands collapsed after the loss of his kingdom and power, perhaps driving him to extremities as the fulfillment of it remained his only recourse? I may be mistaken, but doesn't the Sil intimate that he is less than enthusiastic about the threatening letters he sends to Thingol? (I don't have it with me, so by all means tell me if I'm totally off kilter here) Until he kills Dior & co., I'd argue he'd made a herculean effort to avoid spilling blood.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @mondpeiler:

    I think y'all are correct on the differing nature of kingship in Tolkien. I must just be mired in images of the Sun King.

    I do wonder, though, on the nature of royal bloodlines after these kings are enthroned by acclaim. As in: while Elros, say, was chosen by his people and the Valar to be king of Numenor, certainly not all of his successors were good and kindly kings. Tolkien's royal bloodlines last thousands of years longer than any ones we know of today, and yet we are given only two (third debatable) examples where a king's rule was questioned.If they did not rule by popular acclaim, then, by what basis do they claim to rule?

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by HeisManziel View Post
    Yes, you are absolutely correct in regards to the overbearing power of oaths. What I'm asking is why did Maedhros not show the same zealotry towards its fulfillment as his brothers beforehand, and why was his shift so sudden and violent? Is it just that his resistance to the oath's demands collapsed after the loss of his kingdom and power, perhaps driving him to extremities as the fulfillment of it remained his only recourse? I may be mistaken, but doesn't the Sil intimate that he is less than enthusiastic about the threatening letters he sends to Thingol? (I don't have it with me, so by all means tell me if I'm totally off kilter here) Until he kills Dior & co., I'd argue he'd made a herculean effort to avoid spilling blood.
    Indeed he works to restrain his brothers early especially Celegorm. Once their power is broken after the Nirnaeth the Silmaril of Luthien becomes the only attainable one. The letter to the settlement at Sirion offers both friendship and protection in return for the Silmaril. A strange sidenote is that Melian counsels Thingol too give it up too the brothers.

    Nevertheless the kinslayings end his right too the Silmaril, the holy jewel will not suffer his touch lightly, I find Maedhros and Maglor tragic figures. So yes his actions are evil, the brothers do not deny this, but they are never quite sure which is more evil, well until the Silmaril's let them know in no uncertain terms.

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    mondpeiler's Avatar Hastatas Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    yeah, you're right.
    Tolkien somehow stretches the bloodlines a "bit" ;-)

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The balrog was under know obligation to join with Sauron, and Sauron did not have the power to force him to. In fact I believe that the legions that Sauron sent to Moria to drive out Balin may have become trapped with fear and become the balrogs private army. Because it seems as though the orcs were few in number when the colony first drove them out and that the forces of Dol Guldur, after beating the colony, became trapped by fear by the Balrog. Just a theory.

    Secondly I think that Balin's status may have had some part to play in his going to Moria. Surely if Balin had been some nobody Dain would've refused him utterly and told him to get back to the mines. But this is Balin, companion of Thorin Oakenshield, retaker of Erebor(if you ignore the fact he did not kill the dragon). That status must've carried some political clout and may have meant that Dain became powerless to stop him, in the same way that Thrain had been powerless all those years ago to force the Dwarves into Moria (although the fact that Dain had just brutally cut down Azog/Voldermort may have helped as well as the fact that the Iron Hills dwarves had more living dwarves)

    Finally I agree that Mhaedros was one of the better guys during the First Age, coming in at 2 out of 10 on the arsehole scale, with 1 being Beren and 10 being Turin and Celegorm and Caranthir (Caranthir was also known as 'Saville' due to his unhealthy fixation with playing Santa at the Valmar christmas party.
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    Elven Warrior's Avatar Signifer
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    the thing that bothered me the most about the deeds of the sons of feanor was the abandoning of diors children i never understood that.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Ιt wasn't the Sons themselves that left them into the forest, but Celegorm's servants. Mhaedros searched them vainly after that.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Elven Warrior View Post
    the thing that bothered me the most about the deeds of the sons of feanor was the abandoning of diors children i never understood that.
    Dior if I remember right personally slew Celegorm, I always put it down to that. Celegorm was not a nice guy burdened with much of a conscious, I figure his personal followers and servants were not much different. It was Celegorm's who did that particular deed, Maedhros searched for them for a long time after.

    After Finrod is lost, the Elves of Nargothrond become a secretive folk dipping their arrows in poison and killing anyone who gets close. This seems about Orodreth's speed to me, Orodreth never struck me as a particular valiant or wise king. Though Tolkien puts it down too the sneaky words of Celegorm and Curufin, Orodreth doesn't seem to have minded the plan much. Though maybe they should have stuck with it considering what happened after.
    Last edited by muller227; January 05, 2013 at 01:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by muller227 View Post
    Dior if I remember right personally slew Celegorm, I always put it down to that. Celegorm was not a nice guy burdened with much of a conscious, I figure his personal followers and servants were not much different.

    After Finrod is lost, the Elves of Nargothrond become a secretive folk dipping their arrows in poison and killing anyone who gets close. This seems about Orodreth's speed to me, Orodreth never struck me as a particular valiant or wise king. Though Tolkien puts it down too the sneaky words of Celegorm and Curufin, Orodreth doesn't seem to have minded the plan much. Though maybe they should have stuck with it considering what happened after.
    Well, Orodreth was a complete idiot after all.

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