Tolkien General Discussion II

[ztree]

The thing with the Druedain that fascniates me are the Puckelman stone figures and the magic that it involves. Maybe the UT passage that puts Druedain and orcs so close together, is from a time where Tolkien was playing with the idea that orcs are made from stone. Druedain --> Puckelman made from stone... I'm just thinking out loud. We know that Tolkien decided in the end that orcs are made from men and elves and not stone.

And the Hobbits are (kind of) the human equivalent to the orcish snagas, to me. A small but agile breed of the main race, more fit for scouting and stealth missions.

[RuleBritannia]

Is there any evidence of attempts by Men to oppress the Hobbits? I mean, obviously bandits and such would always be a threat, as they would be to anyone, but the comparison of Hobbits to Snaga is fairly interesting. It makes me wonder why some Men haven't come along and tried to take over the Shire for its resources and labor.

[ztree]

It makes me wonder why some Men haven't come along and tried to take over the Shire for its resources and labor.

Because of the Dunedain watching over the shire and it's borders, I guess. They were able to keep evil creatures at bay just one days walk from a fat tavern keeper in Bree, who knew nothing about that.
So the shire was protected you can say.
Suffice to say, as soon as the Dunedain were distracted by other affairs, Saruman tried just what you said. To take the Shire for it's resources and labour.

And in the foreword of my copy of Lotr, Tolkien states that "...In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves."
Maybe they would have survived similar to the snagas of orcs. Reduced to the lowest caste in a slave system.

[RuleBritannia]

And of course Frodo and the Ring, as well as Aragorn and Gandalf's sympathy and liking of the Hobbits, kept the West from considering them inferior or even exploitable for the War, at least in the late Third Age, too. The people of Bree seemed to get along with them just fine, though, bartenders too, especially if Hobbit customers were interested in drinks.

[ztree]

And of course Frodo and the Ring, as well as Aragorn and Gandalf's sympathy and liking of the Hobbits, kept the West from considering them inferior or even exploitable for the War, at least in the late Third Age, too. The people of Bree seemed to get along with them just fine, though, bartenders too, especially if Hobbit customers were interested in drinks.

You are right of course, in the third age the Hobbits were protected by the good people and their decency. That's one of Tolkien's points: The minds of such as Saruman or Sauron would have only looked at the hobbits in terms of economic usefullness and the exploitation thereof. That's why he said that in a conflict between such sides "...In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves."

On the other hand, Gandalf, the Dunedain and the Elves were appreciating the actual existence of hobbits as they were. The hobbits were happy with their lives as-is, so it is not for anyone from outside to force a perfceived "usefullness" upon them.

In Saruman's world, the Hobbits could have assembeld Iphones in sweat shops, because of their petite and nimbly fingers.

[Savage5854]

I agree with ztree but i think the greater point to make hobbits is that there greatest protection has always been their perceived uselessness. The shire has little value to the forces of evil, the hobbits are not warriors, blacksmiths or even craftsmen in general, they are a product of the countryside that Tolkien so greatly valued. I believe this is the answer as to why the Shire hasn't been a target of other races and factions in middle-earth. (the scourging of the shire doesn't really count since they were looking for the ring)

No one ever suspects the hobbits to achieve anything and this is the very reason Gandalf places such huge faith in hobbits, specifically Bilbo and Frodo, they are simple, incorruptible folk (to an extent in Bilbo's case) and why in the world of men, despite the power of Gondor and the horsemen of Rohan it the simple undeterred hobbits who ultimately safe middle-earth.

[Incredible Bulk]

I agree with ztree but i think the greater point to make hobbits is that there greatest protection has always been their perceived uselessness. The shire has little value to the forces of evil, the hobbits are not warriors, blacksmiths or even craftsmen in general, they are a product of the countryside that Tolkien so greatly valued. I believe this is the answer as to why the Shire hasn't been a target of other races and factions in middle-earth. (the scourging of the shire doesn't really count since they were looking for the ring)

No one ever suspects the hobbits to achieve anything and this is the very reason Gandalf places such huge faith in hobbits, specifically Bilbo and Frodo, they are simple, incorruptible folk (to an extent in Bilbo's case) and why in the world of men, despite the power of Gondor and the horsemen of Rohan it the simple undeterred hobbits who ultimately safe middle-earth.

I posted this before in another thread I think it Applies here:

Technically Frodo did fail I have read Council of Elrond recently trying to understand the subtlties of the text in terms of defining the quest. The clearest I've been able to find, unambiguously, that the objective is to destroy the ring in the fire at the Crack of Doom.

Frodo's failure was that at the last possible moment Frodo decided to keep the ring for himself and had Gollum not unwittingly done the deed, it would not have been done. True, Frodo did a HUGE amount to further the objectives of the quest, more than any other character. But at that last critical moment, when the act had to be done, he failed to throw it in. Frodo failed to destroy the ring while it was still in his possesion and, as such, Frodo failed. Ultimately, the quest succeeded but Frodo, personally, failed.

[Master Shu Win]

Could anyone tell me what happened to the hobbits that lived along the upper Anduin?

[conon394]

more than any other character. But at that last critical moment,

That's a bit unfair - Sam, Aragorn, Gandalf, the Whole army that marched to their doom after the Last Debate, Galadriel Tom B, etc. all did as much as Frodo to make his final screw up possible with its good side effect. Stop and consider w/o Sam Frodo would have simply died - killed by Gollum or simply lost and starving on the East side of Anduin. Frodo is in the long run a figure deserving of pity but all to often he is an ass who but for his friends and their sacrifices would not have ever succeeded and spends a little too much time feeling sorry for himself.

[RuleBritannia]

I posted this before in another thread I think it Applies here:

Technically Frodo did fail I have read Council of Elrond recently trying to understand the subtlties of the text in terms of defining the quest. The clearest I've been able to find, unambiguously, that the objective is to destroy the ring in the fire at the Crack of Doom.

Frodo's failure was that at the last possible moment Frodo decided to keep the ring for himself and had Gollum not unwittingly done the deed, it would not have been done. True, Frodo did a HUGE amount to further the objectives of the quest, more than any other character. But at that last critical moment, when the act had to be done, he failed to throw it in. Frodo failed to destroy the ring while it was still in his possesion and, as such, Frodo failed. Ultimately, the quest succeeded but Frodo, personally, failed.

It's more of a completion of a full circle of Tolkien's story, in my opinion, that Frodo failed. Sauron had finally won. The Army at the Morannon never had a chance of winning. Now Frodo wouldn't destroy the Ring. It was Gollum, though, a former Hobbit himself, who ended up doing it just because of his greed and desire for the Ring. Sauron's powers of corruption nearly won him the War, but in the end, they led to his "death".

But I do agree that Frodo got a little too much credit for his actions. Without the Fellowship's sacrifices, he would've died long before he got to Mordor. The same goes if he hadn't had Sam's encouragement. Without the suicide attack on the Black Gate, Sauron would've easily found him the moment he set foot near Mount Doom.

[Ngugi]

The plan was not to win at Morannon, it indeed was a suicidal operation to try to help Frodo; by drawing all forces from the fields of Mordor to the Black Gate no enemies would hopefully stand in the Hobbits way. See RotK; The Last debate;

‘As Aragorn has begun, so we must go on. We must push Sauron to his last throw. We must call out his hidden strength, so that he shall empty his land. We must march out to meet him at once. We must make ourselves the bait, though his jaws should close on us. He will take that bait, in hope and in greed, for he will think that in such rashness he sees the pride of the new Ringlord: and he will say: “So! he pushes out his neck too soon and too far. Let him come on, and behold I will have him in a trap from which he cannot escape. There I will crush him, and what he has taken in his insolence shall be mine again for ever.”
‘We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dûr be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. And better so than to perish nonetheless - as we surely shall, if we sit here - and know as we die that no new age shall be.’
- Gandalf

Wouldn't say he get to much credit, as no one with a serious argumentation neglects the rest of the Fellowship or Gollum in the matter


@ conon'
Is there any protagonist character you like in LotR? haha

[Savage5854]

I would argue that Frodo's ultimate failure in turning back from the fires of Mount Doom allows Tolkien to do two things which interlink. Firstly, it allows Gollum to complete his ultimate purpose, Gollum is the only living thing on middle-earth that is prepared to throw themselves to death as long as they have possession of the ring. This means that he is capable of doing the one thing that i would argue is impossible for anyone else and make the final move and destroy the ring, Isildur failed and i see no reason to believe it would ever be possible, for a race of men at least, to destroy the one ring. I firmly believe that it was impossible to destroy the one ring unless you are as obsessed with it to the extent Gollum is and be willing for the ring to wholly consume you.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken but that is how i explain Frodo's failure as although it is true he is hugely reliant on his friends and is quite whiney, he is always focused on his quest and every decision he makes has that ultimate goal in mind, whether it be sending away Sam or separating from the fellowship.

[brasswire]

the quest succeeded but Frodo, personally, failed.

Yes, but I kind of disagree as well. Gollum was ultimately the one who destroyed the Ring when Frodo in the end could not, but Gollum would not have been there at all if not for Frodo (and Bilbo and Sam). It's the Hobbit's pity and mercy they show towards Gollum, though reluctant at times, that allows the quest to succeed even after they themselves are defeated. So they are successful, but not because of their strength or willpower or even friendship, but because they show mercy to a wretched little creature who did not deserve it.

[RuleBritannia]

Which is also part of Tolkien's own liberty at creating an unexpected turn. Through all three books, you don't think Gollum will end up being the one who accidentally destroys the Ring. You think Frodo will accomplish his quest and that Gollum at best will regain his humanity (or Hobbitanity?) and at worst will try to kill both Sam and Frodo in some kind of final fight.

Not only is Gollum's destroying of the Ring a nice twist ending, it also fits in with the idea that not even a pure-hearted Hobbit can resist greed.

[Bowmaster]

You people really don't understand Frodo's HUGE sacrifices. How 'bout one of you goes in to a lifeless little plain with barely any food and only dirty drinking water, with a cannonball strapped to your neck, and a painflu old wound in you? That's pretty much what Frodo did. Sure, he couldn't have done it without the others, but he still did the biggest part of it.

[conon394]

@ conon'
Is there any protagonist character you like in LotR? haha

Are you kidding me its Fatty Bolger a hobbit with more courage in his little finger than the skulking rat Frodo - sure Fatty you stay here and were my clothes while I duck out the back I am sure the black riders are really just sell in Mordor Cookies a little aggressively - get me a box of thin orc mints.

Seriously - I certainly did not mean to denigrate Frodo in reality but simply to point out that many people sacrificed for him up to and including their lives in rather hopeless situations.

But Frodo's choice to leave the fellowship alone remains amazingly stupid... Which brings me back to one of my favorite points Gandalf ran the fellowship incredibility bad. I mean what was his plan? Nobody knows.... Frodo is constantly made to make choices by Gandalf and Aragorn but apparently was allowed to hang out Bilbo or enjoy song night rather than get the accelerated intense briefing on the world of ME (consider Gandalf seems to know the passwords Gondor but never bothers to tell Frodo...). I think the simple fact is Gandalf did his whole need to know thing - where nobody but himself needed to know - because he had no plan. He bullied the meeting at Elrond's with the help of Galdor (*) and than again at the Last debate with a plan that amounted to I am just going to throw you all at the wall and see what sticks, most of you will die, but my gut tells me this will work...

see Ngugi I prefer to stay with my favorite whipping boy

*' And that we shall not find on the roads to the Sea,' said Galdor. 'If the return to Iarwain be
thought too dangerous, then flight to the Séa is now fraught with gravest peril. My heart tells me
that Sauron will expect us to take the western way, when he learns what has befallen. He soon will.
The Nine have been unhorsed indeed but that is but a respite, ere they find new steeds and swifter.

Really this has got to be one of the weakest points in the the debate. So Elrond has several lords who can openly face the Nine. They have Gandalf. They have Nazgul Killing swords. They have Aragron and how many rangers? S has no power base in the area. None of there scouts/messengers were molested and the one attack they face is rather small when they go East. It seems to me with Gandalf, Glorfindel, the twins, and what 50, maybe 100 rangers and dozens of Noldor are a force Sauron really had no way to stop from taking the ring West and simply boarding a elf ship and sailing to parts unknown to be tossed into the sea [a rather hostile element to Morgoth and S].

[brasswire]

But Frodo's choice to leave the fellowship alone remains amazingly stupid... Which brings me back to one of my favorite points Gandalf ran the fellowship incredibility bad. I mean what was his plan? Nobody knows.... Frodo is constantly made to make choices by Gandalf and Aragorn but apparently was allowed to hang out Bilbo or enjoy song night rather than get the accelerated intense briefing on the world of ME

Isn't that really Gandalf's plan though? That they are going to beat Sauron because they put their faith in the simple goodness and innocence of the hobbits and in fate. Gandalf seems to me to be a huge believer in fate and/or in Eru. That if they do the right thing and have pure motives, then good will win out in the end even if they don't know the exact details. The most important thing is to keep hope and do the right thing, and the second is to do the smart thing.

He keeps Frodo in the dark, I think, because he is trying to preserve Frodo's innocence. Frodo is helped in resisting the Ring because he doesn't care so much about material things, politics, power, war, etc. If that's true then educating him about the world could actually be counterproductive. I think it's the same reason why he asks Frodo to make decisions that he has really no clue about. If the Ring is capable of subtly influencing any one of them, then they can't necessarily trust their own judgement, so the only course is to let Frodo make the choice and leave it up to Fate to handle the details. I also think they may feel this gives them some advantage over Sauron who is able to predict the actions of a rational/strategic person but not of someone operating on blind faith.

[smoesville]

...someone operating on blind faith.

Predicting the actions of an idiot is difficult But really Gandalf has no time to plan beyond a certain point, the world is too unpredictable. Having said that the reason the journey was so perilous is that someone gave a letter of great import to a fat moron with the memory of a gnat...

[RuleBritannia]

*' And that we shall not find on the roads to the Sea,' said Galdor. 'If the return to Iarwain be
thought too dangerous, then flight to the Séa is now fraught with gravest peril. My heart tells me
that Sauron will expect us to take the western way, when he learns what has befallen. He soon will.
The Nine have been unhorsed indeed but that is but a respite, ere they find new steeds and swifter.

Really this has got to be one of the weakest points in the the debate. So Elrond has several lords who can openly face the Nine. They have Gandalf. They have Nazgul Killing swords. They have Aragron and how many rangers? S has no power base in the area. None of there scouts/messengers were molested and the one attack they face is rather small when they go East. It seems to me with Gandalf, Glorfindel, the twins, and what 50, maybe 100 rangers and dozens of Noldor are a force Sauron really had no way to stop from taking the ring West and simply boarding a elf ship and sailing to parts unknown to be tossed into the sea [a rather hostile element to Morgoth and S].

Really? That quote kinda makes it seem like they're in a very bad position if you ask me. Sure, Elrond, his ancient lords, Gandalf, etc. were pretty strong against the Nine, the Rangers didn't stand a chance in their engagements with even a handful of Nazgul, and then Sauron is more than a match for all of them combined. Frodo's true benefit was simply him being a Hobbit. Hobbits aren't very threatening, strong, or fierce, especially compared to Men, Elves, and Orcs. Sauron had no reason to suspect that a Hobbit could sneak into his lands. If Elrond led a charge against Mordor with the group you mentioned, the War of the Ring would've ended very quickly in an embarassingly bad slaughter for the West. However, Sauron didn't feel the need to send out armies upon armies against Frodo, even when he knew he had the Ring. He underestimated him, and overestimated Aragorn, Gandalf, etc.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Predicting the actions of an idiot is difficult But really Gandalf has no time to plan beyond a certain point, the world is too unpredictable. Having said that the reason the journey was so perilous is that someone gave a letter of great import to a fat moron with the memory of a gnat...

Didn't Aragorn have the theory that he had no plan beyond Moria, but hoped he could look at the Mirror of Galadriel, and make one after?