Tolkien General Discussion II

[Mr Kriegtooth]

Hm, I dont think the Orcs would reproduce by rape if Tolkien didnt want them to be a pure evil race. I mean, when rape is your reproduction...youve pretty much gone beyond "from a certain point of view" of evil to pure solid evil

I'd say maybe the FIRST Orcs were products of rape, and now they reproduce normally.

Now get some hot orc sex in your mind. Let it sit there.

[Lugiahua]

Perhaps you want to reformulate the phrase " I see no problem force raping them "

From a lore perspective as said they would die before there's any offspring. Both male and female Elves taken must thus been turned into Orks before they gave birth to new Orks.

Just point out..

Silmarillion says Melkor was able to turn Elves (and Men) into his service without actually turning them into Orcs, sometimess simply by staring at them.
That's why even if a captured Elf escaped or released somehow, they were no longer trusted by others due to fear of "mind control" of Melkor.

[Krieglord]

Hm, I dont think the Orcs would reproduce by rape if Tolkien didnt want them to be a pure evil race. I mean, when rape is your reproduction...youve pretty much gone beyond "from a certain point of view" of evil to pure solid evil

I'd say maybe the FIRST Orcs were products of rape, and now they reproduce normally.

Now get some hot orc sex in your mind. Let it sit there.

Its just so difficult to picture an orc women

I suppose Sauron would be easily capable of requesting tributes in the form of females from the Southrons and Easterlings and the other people in the east we dont really know anything about

Oh god I just had a horrible picture of a mutated elf women pouring out orc babies like the darkspawn broodmother in dragon age who used to be a dwarf

[smoesville]

What a lovely image, thanks for that

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Like the very lovely discussion you started.

[smoesville]

I just pointed out something, other people took it and ran with it

[Thangaror]

Its just so difficult to picture an orc women

Just watch the news:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Now where was that picture..

[mondpeiler]

oh Thangaror you're absolutely wrong!
she's not an orc-woman... she's Saurons first lady.

[Ngugi]

Just point out..

Silmarillion says Melkor was able to turn Elves (and Men) into his service without actually turning them into Orcs, sometimess simply by staring at them.
That's why even if a captured Elf escaped or released somehow, they were no longer trusted by others due to fear of "mind control" of Melkor.

Valid point.
It may possibly have to break down to a meta discussion concerning in what manner Morgoth controlled them, and if fear was the tool an ordered sexual act would still be percived for what is what, a rape, with the normal consequences of that I assume.

I leave it there, as I currently have not time to make a case that Morgoth's control mechanism is fear.


@ rest
Stop running with smoe's topic into scary corners
Back on topic(s) gentlemen or you

[Leaf-Fan-Forever]

What claim did Gil-galad have to the High Kingship of the Noldor? After Turgon dies, wouldn't the sons Feanor have a stronger case to reclaim the High Kingship? And once Maedhros and his brothers pass, Celebrimbor? Or even Earendil or Elrond, as they are of the house of Fingolfin? It seems a random twist to suddenly promote the House of Finarfin. Perhaps this is why Christopher Tolkien mistakenly placed Gil-galad as Fingons son as this would make more sense.

[Ngugi]

Gil-galad was the High-king of the Noldor in Middle-earth, they have Finwë or Finarfin as lord in Aman, should be said first. Thus anyone not in ME is unimportant for the matter in ME, thus Eärendil for example is of no concern and considering he counted himself rather Man than Elf before by choice concluded to be an Elf he is unlikley to been interested to take such a role even if still in ME.

Gil-galad is one of three [of who two are known to be alive at least] last decendants of Finwë to come from direct male decendant line, and the Elves are, as a rule, paternal in the succession (from father to son).
Now the monarchy is a matter of a social construction, possibly established in law but according to our accounts on tradition in Noldor's case, where people follow a man, it is not a matter of a divine or natural law where folk are forced to follow someone when they in majority do not want to.
It is made clear from how Finwë was chosen to be Noldors leader, while Feanor claimed his kingship the majority followed Fingolfin and Finarfin instead, Maedhros chose to elect Fingolfin the High-king and thus the royal line became Fingolfin's showed trough Fingon and Turgon. Finrod rejected his hollow kingship over Nagothrond when the people did not want to follow him any longer. When Fingolfin's House had ended (paternally) Fëanors ashamed House was either in exile (Maglor) or accepted Gil-galad as High-king (Celebrimbor) meaning Finarfin's House was the royal and Gil-galad thus rightfully the High-king.

Elrond was far less connected to the Noldor royal line according to how it's counted, with Turgon his grandmothers father; he was far more Edain and Sindar royal than Noldor counting on it. He actually did not count himself as a Noldor royal heir, even if naturally a decendant to them;

Elrond remained among the Elves and carried on the lineage of King Elwë19.

19 And also that of Turgon; though he preferred that of Elwe, who was not under the ban that was laid on the Exiles.
- HoME 12; Problem of Ros

[Gallus]

Wasn't Gil-galad Fingon's son?

[Ngugi]

The turns on Gil-galad's geneology are great hehe. He has belonged to all of the three royal Houses and had many fathers.
At one point he indeed was Fingon's son, however Tolkien later rejected that. As Christopher admits to use the texts claiming Fingon was the father was an editorial decision he regrets [see both quotes];

Much closer analysis of the admittedly extremley complex material than I had made twenty years ago make it clear that Gil-galad as the son of Fingon (see XI.56, 243) was an ephemeral idea.
- [ephemeral = temporary/short lived] HoME12; Shibboleth of Fëanor

Gil-galad was instead Orodreth's son, who in turn was son of Angrod son of Finarfin. Obvious is thus that also Orodreth's place in the tree was not a simple one. However it was not worked into the existing stories of the FA;

There can be no doubt that this was my father’s last word on the subject; but nothing of this late and radically altered conception ever touched the existing narratives, and it was obviously impossible to introduce it into the published Silmarillion. It would nonetheless have been very much better to have left Gil-galad’s parentage obscure.
- HoME 12; Shibboleth of Fëanor

[smoesville]

So basically he's Orodreth's son but none of the history as we know it reflects this? So how is this settled in your mind? Also is Orodreth the nephew or brother of Finrod?

[Ngugi]

Well, the guy died, so we have to face that all his conclusions were never rewritten, his final version of Quenta Silmarillion was never completed and we have to make our own conclusions on what Tolkien intended and/or what make sense for his creation - thus partly we are provided UT and the HoME books by Christopher.

The note for example that Gil-galad was sent to Círdan in the Falas was an older version where Gil-galad was the son of Finrod Felagund and was sent there together with Felagunds wife - but we know from later scriptures he never had one. We still have to have Gil-galad sent there since we know he followed the mariners to Balar and hanged out with Eärendil later on; that do not make it indisputable it should be Fingon who we can conlude sent him there, due to later texts where Gil-galad was his son, since the latest notes informed us on the intention was to make him Orodreth's son.

It's like there is no history actually telling how Doriath fell and Thingol died, beside from the 1920ths (IIRC) that was not in line whith the other material that gave us Silmarillion. The story found in Silmarillion was a qualified [EDIT: though partly completly incorrect, concerning Nauglamir] guess on how JRR might composed the history created by Christopher and Guy Gavriel Kay, since a 40 year old text had to many incompabilities to the later versions of Beleriands history that had been composed. (See HoME 11; The Tale of Years, last pages)

To have Orodreth as Felagund's beloved nephew instead of brother I have no issue with, rather it may help us understand why he was easier to be overruled by the sons of Fëanor for example.
To have Gil-galad of Finarfin's House I am strongly in favour of, since it create a thematical connection to Sauron and make that House his nemsis. In the FA it is Felagund who contest Sauron face to face, in the SA Gil-galad lead the greatest Elven nations in the wars against Him to in the end wrestle Him and die winning while in the TA it is Galadriel who ward against Him by own powers or strategic plotting and the White Council.

On the otehr hand I chose to completley ignore the last ideas about Galadriel that Tolkien had (from UT), since they make very little sense in context of the previous works. He made her far to perfect, a 'Mary Sue' type of character and it goes completly against her thematical and practical role in the myhtology he had previous written.

[Bowmaster]

I'm not sure if someone has pointed this out before, but:

In one of the Appendixes Tolkien says that the army of Orcs that attacked Erebor was led by the SON of Azog. SON!!! SONSONSONSONSONSONSONSONSOSNOSONSONSONSON!!!!!!!!

Edit: Well I guess the latter was quite cliché. I mean, how can an Orc have a son? They were bred, not born. Also AFAIK there are no Orcish women.

[Ngugi]

Yeeeees...? Orks have children, least those Orks that are created out of Elves and Men. This is clearly stated both here and there, and Uruk-hai are a crossbreed between Orks and Men, for example.

[Macilrille]

I hope he is ironic Ngugi- I hope he is ironic...

[ztree]

Just wanted to chime in and ask a question again I had earlier on a gruesome topic: Anything noted in the lore concerning cross breeds between orcs and dwarf? I don't know of any mention on this, but I just wanted to make sure.