Tolkien General Discussion II

[ztree]

@ Macilrille
From The Hobbit, chapter The Clouds Burst

First of all, thanks for the crucial quote. Seriously, you are a quote machine.

And then

Messengers had passed to and fro between all their cities, colonies and strongholds;

in all the mountains there was a forging and an arming.

Cities, colonies and strongholds. Messengers and forging an army. That sounds pretty organized to me. It seems I have to eat my own words from earlier, where I doubted their capabilities on that self-governed wise.

great mountain Gundabad of the North, where was their capital,

Capital. So Gundabad orcs are capital troops, it turns out. But that doesn't mean they are superior (though probable).

[Ngugi]

If we assume Bolg held Gundabad and his BG was natives rather than handpicked from all the MM, then it could be argued:

Day drew on. The goblins gathered again in the valley. There a host of Wargs came ravening and with them came the bodyguard of Bolg, goblins of huge size with scimitars of steel. Soon actual darkness was coming into a stormy sky; while still the great bats swirled about the heads and ears of elves and men, or fastened vampire-like on the stricken.
- The Hobbit; The Clouds Burst

Not a solid argument, but as good as it can be.
Though, sinze I come into the debate lat and is not sure what the points are, I add that a huge Ork is just almost Man-high:

But even as they retreated, and before Pippin and Merry had reached the stair outside, a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber;
- FotR; The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

[Macilrille]

Cities, colonies and strongholds. Messengers and forging an army. That sounds pretty organized to me. It seems I have to eat my own words from earlier, where I doubted their capabilities on that self-governed wise. :

Actually not. Iron Age German tribes did the same, without having an organised overall government. And it has been done before or since then for countless times during history.

[ztree]

Actually not. Iron Age German tribes did the same, without having an organised overall government. And it has been done before or since then for countless times during history.

But when they don't have some kind of government structure, how does the capital quote come into play?
Mt. Gundabad is capital of what? Iron age germans surely had no capital to speak of (you're the historian, I don't want to lean out the window too far here )

[Macilrille]

No that is true, they did not as such. But the Gauls did in their tribal units and coalition.

In Germany they had central holy places and central villages that were mostly central because the head chieftain lived there. However, already in the Viking Age, capitols are mentioned for first Denmark, then the other Scandinavian countries. And their army and societal structure was much the same as that of the Iron Age, as were Anglo-Saxon England which Tolkien was very familiar with. The same goes for Gaul. It seems to me it is more a question of density of population and urbanisation in this case, and that Gaul is probably a good allegory for the Orks as there were several competing tribal alliances there, centered in large cities and only very rarely allied/unified.

And like the Gauls, the Orks were quite urbanised.

Edit, they also probably had a Sauronic priesthood just like the Gauls had their druids.

[Krieglord]

Sauronic priesthood just like the Gauls had their druids.

Sauron had built up a religion of worshiping Melkor which im sure all those in mordor followed I wonder if orcs in the MM followed it.

[Ngugi]

Actually in Middle-earth Sauron called himself a god and made folks worship him, it was only to the Númenóreans he brought Melkor into his religious politics because he had to. He could not call himself a god as he just had surrendered to them, but by calling himself high priest instead he could maintain authority (this strategy is described in Myths Transformed, HoME 10).
Sauron intended to fill his former masters role in his subjects eyes.

In this Age, as is elsewhere told, Sauron arose again in Middle-earth, and grew, and turned back to the evil in which he was nurtured by Morgoth, becoming mighty in his service. Already in the days of Tar-Minastir, the eleventh King of Númenor, he had fortified the land of Mordor and had built there the Tower of Barad-dûr, and thereafter he strove ever for the dominion of Middle-earth, to become a king over all kings and as a god unto Men.
- Akallabeth

In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and aimed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

EDIT: Here it was, HoME 10:

Sauron was not a ‘sincere’ atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda). As was seen in the case of Ar-Pharazon. But there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor’s own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself. Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both profited by this darkened shadow of good and services of ‘worshippers’. But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time. His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

What were those things the Petty-Dwarves of Amon-Rudh were eating? They sounded a lot like potatoes.

[Mr Kriegtooth]

I was reading TV Tropes for LOTR(trying to avoid spoilers though), and theres been a debate over the nature of Orcs, and Tolkien himself was conflicted on their nature(Pure evil and all)

I thought though, why assume they are all evil, when they seem to reproduce sexually?

Theres probably the women, children, and non-warrior men hiding somewhere in Mordor.

From my prelimary thoughts on that, assuming they are supposed to be sentient and all, I'd view them more akin to a Mongolian Horde, or a Viking Raid. To the victim, they are the ultimate form of evil, killing all in their path

But to the Horde warrior or viking themselves, they are just warriors, and way back behind them are the women, the weak, the youth, who arent exactly evil

Alternatively, go Warhammer style, and have Orcs be stupid, and pretty much just a really smart animal...but still an animal. WAAAAAAAAAAAGH WE WANT SHINY RING

[Aikanár]

Ork is not a description of activity, which viking is.

[Mr Kriegtooth]

For some reason this thread makes me double post

[Zimmy]

There are Orc-women. I believe somewhere Tolkien stated that they just don't appear. There was a quote Ngugi the Quote Master(TM) pulled up a while back about Orcs multiplying in the manner of the Children of Iluvatar.

[Ngugi]

Orcs are a race, or races, who are made evil in their form; they aret wisted other beings and thus 'created' such, meaning Orc children and Orc wives are having the same evil in them, it's a corruption of their souls.
Actually we do not know if Orc females fight alongside their men, simply because no one have cared to look for differences among those they have killed. Still that do not matter, as an Orc woman at home just as an Orc male at home not killing anyone else is still corrupted to hate what's good and endorse what's evil, in the case with Orcs it is not as with Men a matter of capacity to repent evil.
Borrow HoME 10 and read Myths Transformed is the best suggestion.

Goblin is just another word for Orc.

Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures.
- preface The Hobbit

At occasion even Uruk-hais are called Goblins.

[Aikanár]

While I agree with you, that Ork can be a race, they not necessarily are. As much as Ork or orkish is not a description of activity -while orking could very well be- Men or even Elves can become orkish or Ork by deception, that is corruption or in the end marring. Hence while there for sure are such things as different Ork races, even more so in the later Ages, Ork or orkish can as well be a description of the state of corruption or marring of an Eruhin.

(Disclaimer: not at home atm., hence no access to my books but it all should be in Myths Transformed)

[Ngugi]

Why I noted 'races', the debate on Ork origin is a big one hehe, so I tend focus on the Quendi and Atani kind here, who in difference to animated, animal or Maia origin ought to have some interest in this debate (especially as the animated [if existed] fell with Morogth)
However I maintain that an Ork born is an Ork, an matter of the fate of the spirit redeemable only by Eru;

With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190,1 where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin. We believe that, I suppose, of all human kinds and sons and breeds, though some appear, both as individuals and groups to be, by us at any rate, unredeemable.....
- Letter 269

[Aikanár]

I don't disagree with that! In contrary I do agree with you that only Eru can redeem them. My point was that it isn't merely a question of race, but as well a question of personal marring or, dare I say it, personal choice. Free will can choose corruption too.

[Ngugi]

Let us conclude on 'forced irredemable corruption on individuals made into Orks or Orks born with Qunedi and Atani heritage' then at least ^^

[conon394]

Theres probably the women, children, and non-warrior men hiding somewhere in Mordor.

Well there are certainly Children since JRRT never got around to altering the Hoobit this quote stands:

"Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked!"

So Orcs have children that gollum can kill...

[Cyclops]

I think JRRT has a quote about why orcs use Westron where he notes the orcs spoke a multitude of mutually incomprehensible local dialects and used the common tongue between themselves, and any attempt to enforce use of the Black Speech had failed (reason not given, I assume orcs were to stupid to learn more than a couple of pretty basic langauges).

This is consitent with orcs spending long periods without Sauron's supervision and imposed order, having to fend for themselves. AFAIK no orcs actually speak in Sil, do they have speaking parts in HoME or UT? So I wonder what language they spoke in the early SA and FA.

About the MM goblins, its clear Bolg is some sort of high chief rather than absolute sovreign, more like an Ard Ri than Louis XIV. It may be an hereditary position (son of Azog, a pevious important leader and possibly supreme chief) but I think its just the toughest biggest meanest Goblin bashes the others and they tend to obey him.

As for the capital, I assume it was located where the chief was: wasn't Azog based in Moria? thats where Thror was killed on Azog's orders, and where Azog himself met his end, but AFAIK Bolg was at Gundabad. I may be wrong, perhaps the goblin army mustered there as it was a central point.

[Ngugi]

He did here:

The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days. It is said that they bad no language of their own, but took what they could of other tongues and perverted it to their own liking; yet they made only brutal jargons, scarcely sufficient even for their own needs, unless it were for curses and abuse. And these creatures, being filled with malice, hating even their own kind, quickly developed as many barbarous dialects as there were groups or settlements of their race, so that their Orkish speech was of little use to them in intercourse between different tribes.
So it was that in the Third Age Orcs used for communication between breed and breed the Westron tongue; and many indeed of the older tribes, such as those that still lingered in the North and in the Misty Mountains, had long used the Westron as their native language, though in such a fashion as to make it hardly less unlovely than Orkish.
- Appendix F

The conclusion ought to be that they took other native tongues in their regions from folks they have interactions with.

When all was ready they assailed and sackedone by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could from Gundabad to the Gladden. Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark and by light. But the Dwarves had the victory through their strength, and their matchless weapons, and the fire of their anger, as they hunted for Azog in every den under mountain.
At last all the Orcs that fled before them were gathered in Moria, and the Dwarf-host in pursuit came to Azanulbizar.
- Appendix A

Ever since the fall of the Great Goblin of the Misty Mountains the hatred of their race for the dwarves had been rekindled to fury. Messengers had passed to and fro between all their cities, colonies and strongholds; for they resolved now to win the dominion of the North. Tidings they had gathered in secret ways; and in all the mountains there was a forging and an arming. Then they marched and gathered by hill and valley, going ever by tunnel or under dark, until around and beneath the great mountain Gundabad of the North, where was their capital, a vast host was assembled ready to sweep down in time of storm unawares upon the South.
- The Hobbit

A bit tricky to draw conclusions.
Personally I think Bolg was the prime leader, like a warlord, over a coalition of tribes, and of these tribes settlements Gundabad was either Bolg's capital and thus "the" capital or just generally the greatest settlement of Orks in the MM menaing it was "the" capital - or naturally it could be both, which I belive since Bolg was titled 'of the North'.
It should be noted that during The Hobbit Moria was presumably still not well populated and thus not a real seat of power.