Tolkien General Discussion II

[knicolas2]

just another question. does tolkien mention in one of his books some kind of dark elves? and how are they described if so..

[conon394]

just another question. does tolkien mention in one of his books some kind of dark elves? and how are they described if so..

In general that means just the Moriquendi - all the elves who never left Middle Earth and lived in with the Valar in the time of the two trees. Of course that has problems are Noldor born in Middle earth still Elves of the Light how about Vanyar born after the Two Trees were destroyed etc...

There is in particular Eol. He is called a 'dark elf' because of his gloomy and bitter personality.

But its also true in the HoME JRRT was still not entirely clear what he wanted. at some Points 'Dark Elf' seems to imply only the elves who never even starred the journey to the west and only wondered later. I think - and Ngugu might have it hand - Eol is supposed to be one who would otherwise have been Noldor had he followed. This become a bit theological but in a sense JRRT seems to be saying there is certain change or 'original difference' (I won't say sin) in choosing to follow the Valar and straying vs not doing so at all. As with Men Morgoth/Melkor found the first born before the Valar, and terrified and hunted them. The Valar were therefore equally as scarey and the decision to trust seems to have been a profound point for those who followed the call.

In addition JRRT also considered it a potential term for Elves captured by Morgoth and perverted by his power and released. The ideal is fairly well developed since escaped captives were mistrusted and the power of Morgoth could be set on even a unbroken person like Hurin

[Macilrille]

And if you are thinking of something like the D&D Drow the answer is no. The closest thing is the Kaukareldar "False-Faeries". These are some sort of mid-stage between captured Elves and Orks. But we hear no more of them then that.

[Gallus]

My friend and I were recently wondering why some Elves in LotR appear to "glow" in the dark. It was a long time since I read LotR but she insists it's written in the books. The only explanation I could come up with is that the Elves that do "glow" have seen the Light of the Trees. So what I'm wondering is, do they "glow" and why?

[Macilrille]

High Elves AKA Calaquendi, are those Elves who has dwelt in Aman and they seem to have an inner shine. In practise this is Noldor only in M-E. And I do not know whether it is inheritable.

[athanaric]

My friend and I were recently wondering why some Elves in LotR appear to "glow" in the dark.

A terrible trait if you're a hunter However good for reading a book I guess.

[conon394]

My friend and I were recently wondering why some Elves in LotR appear to "glow" in the dark. It was a long time since I read LotR but she insists it's written in the books. The only explanation I could come up with is that the Elves that do "glow" have seen the Light of the Trees. So what I'm wondering is, do they "glow" and why?

Well that would apply to Gildor's company only as far as I know when they were out for a what looks like a party... Since they are self described as Exiles they must be Noldor and have no reason for stealth at the time. But I suppose one thing to remember is to recall the supposed nature of the LOTR has a history written... Sam cannot see Galadriel's ring, but Frodo the Ring bearer could - did the Noldor glow for Frodo in a way different from the other Hobbits?

[Krieglord]

Im curious is their factual reason for why Gundabad orcs are better then Mordor orcs? are they closer to Saruman's perfected breed of Urak hai (Orc folk) ?

And totally tolkien related

[Aikanár]

And stupid me though that was a lore thread.

[conon394]

Im curious is their factual reason for why Gundabad orcs are better then Mordor orcs? are they closer to Saruman's perfected breed of Urak hai (Orc folk) ?

Made-up PJ BS...

Look PJ is all over the map here he had orcs in LOTR but now he has at least three new kinds of orcs as well and no good reason to say Gundabad orcs are uber cool...

In fact in the PJ world one wonders why Azog and company were at Moria for the final battle of War of Dwarves and Orcs if Gundabad was so full of awesome orcs? I mean the implication in the books is Gundabad had already been sacked by the Dwarves. Given that the Orcs of the Misty mountains while independent minded could do none of the following - beat the Dwarves, Stop Balin, defeat a few Tooks, Close Moria by themselves, or live up to Ugluk's expectations I think on balance uber Gundabad orcs are PJ fantasy.

[ztree]

Im curious is their factual reason for why Gundabad orcs are better then Mordor orcs? are they closer to Saruman's perfected breed of Urak hai (Orc folk) ?

I'm not sure if Gundabad orcs were specifically described as being superior than other breeds, but they managed to defeat the dwarves of Mt.Gundabad. Maybe this attributed to their reknown.
In general, I believe, those orcs who have a fresh human strain of blood in them are superior over other orcs (half-breeds).
This said, I wonder if it is possible to cross breed dwarves with orcs (imagine the possible traits). Human with orc is possible as we have seen.

[Ngugi]

@ Macilrille
Don't see any opposition in our comments?

[conon394]

I'm not sure if Gundabad orcs were specifically described as being superior than other breeds, but they managed to defeat the dwarves of Mt.Gundabad. Maybe this attributed to their reknown.

Did they and when and while Gundabad was important to the house of Durin it is not where he made is Home. Reiterating the point is that it did not save Angmar nor was it the last gathering point of the Misty Mountain orcs under a unified assault by all Dwarves and we are still left witht he fact MM orcs are clearly less impressive than either of the soldiers of Saruman or Sauron

[ztree]

Reiterating the point is that it did not save Angmar nor was it the last gathering point of the Misty Mountain orcs under a unified assault by all Dwarves and we are still left witht he fact MM orcs are clearly less impressive than either of the soldiers of Saruman or Sauron

Yes, I agree with your downgrading on Gundabad orcs in general (as compared to a movie gloryfication). They are less impressive than Saruman's and Sauron's breeds, no doubt.
But the thing that sets them apart from the aforementioned is that they are more or less "self governed" from what we know. Sauron's orc ranks are strictly governed by a nkvd style internal polit commissariat (even referring to themselves as numbers several times), likewise as Saruman's though he had a loyality and reward system in place, where Sauron only had terror.

Interestingly enough, with the Gundabad orcs we can observe how a more self governed society functions. It seems more isolated and defensive actually. Or is it known that they had organised agression and campaign warfare, above the occasional raid and battle for revenge?
They don't seem capable of that, on their own, do they?

edit: did they send forces to the battle of five armys? Anything written on that?

[Krieglord]

I wasnt even thinking about Pj because so much in the hobbit is just mashed together or made up.

I was actually getting the impression of their superiority from the oh so canon War in the north game and the more canon TATW and to an extent BFME2.

So no actual basis for it? okay thanks was just wondering

[Gr1m_4c3]

I'd say it more has to do with the fact that they held and occupied a place that was of huge significance to the Dwarves rather then any real biological merit.

Although it's possible they pilfered the dwarven arms and armour, which would give them one hell of an edge. But that's just me speculating.

[ztree]

I'd say it more has to do with the fact that they held and occupied a place that was of huge significance to the Dwarves rather then any real biological merit.

Valid. To take and hold a place from the dwarves, without dragons or balrogs or dark lords at your back, seems worthy of any honorable orc mention.

[Gr1m_4c3]

Valid. To take and hold a place from the dwarves, without dragons or balrogs or dark lords at your back, seems worthy of any honorable orc mention.

Well, that and Durin the Deathless supposedly slept there until the coming of the Eldar.

[Macilrille]

Ngugi, OK, I thought you were positing that Sauron made Westron the lingua franca of his empire. Which he certainly did not, but I believe he had little say over what his various subjects spoke. They did have to communicate after all, and Westron was the obvious choice. Perhaps in time he would have forced Black Speech on them all? Who can tell? ...

As for the Orks, those of Mt Gundabad and Moria are likely quite similar, and probably to those of Mt Gram and Goblin Gate as well. As I see it these are four different clans/tribes though. Only rarely in alliance when there is a common enemy and/or under a very strong leader, and as often as not warring amongst themselves and against the lesser Ork tribes rather than against the Free Peoples.

They are indeed self-governing and thus their chatotic nature comes out fully though in breed they are probably like to those of Mordor. With Uruks and Snaga, but with no discipline. I do like to think though, that there is a strong strain of Boldog in the royal line of Gundabad- Moria.

[Ngugi]

@ Macilrille
Naa, simply that Sauron made use of Westron during the SA when he expanded in the west; however can't find my HoME 12 right now so cant confirm it atm

Interestingly enough, with the Gundabad orcs we can observe how a more self governed society functions. It seems more isolated and defensive actually. Or is it known that they had organised agression and campaign warfare, above the occasional raid and battle for revenge?
They don't seem capable of that, on their own, do they?

edit: did they send forces to the battle of five armys? Anything written on that?

From The Hobbit, chapter The Clouds Burst

So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves. This is how it fell out. Ever since the fall of the Great Goblin of the Misty Mountains the hatred of their race for the dwarves had been rekindled to fury. Messengers had passed to and fro between all their cities, colonies and strongholds; for they resolved now to win the dominion of the North. Tidings they had gathered in secret ways; and in all the mountains there was a forging and an arming. Then they marched and gathered by hill and valley, going ever by tunnel or under dark, until around and beneath the great mountain Gundabad of the North, where was their capital, a vast host was assembled ready to sweep down in time of storm unawares upon the South. Then they learned of the death of Smaug, and joy was in their hearts: and they hastened night after night through the mountains, and came thus at last on a sudden from the North hard on the heels of Dain. Not even the ravens knew of their coming until they came out in the broken lands which divided the Lonely Mountain from the hills behind. How much Gandalf knew cannot be said, but it is plain that he had not expected this sudden assault.