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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #41
    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    'These are Dwarven Runes, such as was used of old in Moria.' Said Gandalf. 'Here is written in the tongues of Men and Dwarves:
    BALIN SON OF FUNDIN
    LORD OF MORIA.'
    LoTR p. 338

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Indeed.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Few things to add. Sauron's forces never attacked Khazad-dum after the fall of Eregion, firstly because Sauron was preoccupied in destroying Lindon and secondly because hecould not open the Hollin Gate...
    Durin's axe was left In Moria because Durin was slain by the Balrog and his people fled... they did not depart, they fled...
    Balin's Expedition drove the Orcs off the Eastern Halls such as the First Hall, the Great Gates, the Twenty first Hall and the Chamber of the Mazarbul
    Balin's Tomb bears the inscription:

    BALIN
    FUNDINUL
    UZBADKHAZADDUMU
    BALINSONOVFUNDINLORDOVMORIA

    The first three lines are in Khuzdul and the fourth is the "english/mannish" translation.
    Lets keep enjoying kings and wizards. But also remember to keep them where they belong.
    Where they can do little harm.
    Where they entertain us.

    In fantasies...

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I am very- very busy, but in either UT or one of the late HoMEs it is said that Elrond only escaped north because Saurons forces were assaulted by Dwarves and Elves of Lorien sallying through the West Gate, and when he turned on them they withdrew and shut the gate, and as he could not take Moria by force he turned back to his pursuit. But he did not forget and he bore the Line of Durin extraordinary hatred for it.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Not sure about what you're getting at M', but here's the quote at least:
    In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset.
    He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dm, and with them came Elves of Lrinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards, and it was at that time [in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years] that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell).
    Sauron withdrew the pursuit of Elrond and turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lrinand, whom he drove back; but the Gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Sauron's hate, and all Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.
    - UT; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn


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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Bingo, thanks.

    1. Sauron did attack Moria
    2. Moria was very- very strong (which is fairly logical, it is under the tallest mountains we know off in M-E after all).

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    On a side note puts a bit perspective on the Gates of Moria - even in Person Sauron could not break them. Thats why the lurker sequence in PJs LOTR always bugged me. In the LOTR it blocks the gates in PJ view it breaks the gates which undermines the latent power of the 'good guys'.

    -------------

    Gloin states that "Dain did not give [them] leave willingly." I usually take this to mean he was against their leaving in only his personal opinion yet gives them leave eventually anyways, but the wording of the text seems to indicate that Dain is compelled to let them leave against his will. Am I reading too much into this, or does Dain's kingship hold less water than it seems?
    Well I think the question might be a little nebulous and I think that is how JRRT wanted it.

    Dain II was from a junior branch of Durin's line and so would have I think some difficulty in restraining Balin who had more or less the same blood qualifications. Dain obvious had the Iron Hills (and thus a solid base) but Balin had risked his neck to get Erebor back unlike Dain. Add in the unpredictable factor of Dwarves who were from the the other two Eastern houses and the fact that after Moria was abandoned Durin house and the eastern Dwarves seem to have scattered to several different locations and overall I think Dain likely lacked the authority to really dictate all too much. He was certainly king of Erbor (and the Iron Hills I assume) but I doubt he could realistically order Balin to not do what he wanted to if it was outside of that realm.
    Last edited by conon394; January 02, 2013 at 02:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I don't really think Balin has as strong a claim as Din II. Apart from the obvious (he wasn't king, i doubt dwarves would have accepted a lesser claim over Din), he was descended from the cadet branch stemming from Nin II whereas Din II came from a cadet branch from Din I which makes him a closer relation.

    I get the impression that "more or less" would not apply to dwarves since they are very exacting. I think the fact that Din II claimed the kingship (king under the mountain) he also claimed kingship over all of Durins Folk since the two seem synonymous. That is the reason that Balin chose Lord of Moria as to not usurp authority from Din.
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  9. #49
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well I think the question might be a little nebulous and I think that is how JRRT wanted it.

    Dain II was from a junior branch of Durin's line and so would have I think some difficulty in restraining Balin who had more or less the same blood qualifications. Dain obvious had the Iron Hills (and thus a solid base) but Balin had risked his neck to get Erebor back unlike Dain. Add in the unpredictable factor of Dwarves who were from the the other two Eastern houses and the fact that after Moria was abandoned Durin house and the eastern Dwarves seem to have scattered to several different locations and overall I think Dain likely lacked the authority to really dictate all too much. He was certainly king of Erbor (and the Iron Hills I assume) but I doubt he could realistically order Balin to not do what he wanted to if it was outside of that realm.
    Do not quite agree.

    Dain came to help out as soon as summoned to do it, and came to fight for Erebor, weither Balin came there before or not.

    Dain became the king over Durin's Folk inhertiting Thorin, since all this folk had one king, he did not become king of any geographical realm alone (or Thorin would not been king at all after all; and Dain was never king of the Iron Hills before since he had a king).

    Lastly we can tell that Balin did not go before Dain actually gave his permission. It may of course be he gave is since Balin intended to go anyway, but that seems to me the less credible interpetation than that he went once Dain gave a reluctant permission.


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  10. #50
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @conon: You've read my mind on that one.

    I think something should be said for Dain's coming to help Thorin when called. Every faction present was motivated by greed and desire of Smaug's treasure horde, I don't know why Dain would be any different in that regard.

    It seems that the title of King was in some respect a more honorary than practical one, and one which garnered great respect. It did not, however, necessarily supersede the lords of other realms except when in dire need. The Dwarves of the Iron Hills come at Thorin's call, but Thorin never sees fit to exert his right as King all during his exile by setting up shop in Dain's lands, despite their being the most powerful Dwarven lands left. I think this is indicative of there being natural divisions amongst Durin's Folk by "nationality." Thorin is acknowledged as King of his folk, but he lacks the political power to command Dain to do anything, such as give up his realm and power base in the Iron Hills. Even his request to Dain at Erebor is just that, a request for aid, if my memory of the Hobbit serves. I think there is a similar dynamic at work between Dain and Balin.

    Consider the history: At Azanulbizar Dain flat out refuses to support Thrain in his endeavor to enter Moria. He respects the title: "You are the father of our Folk, and we have bled for you, and will again;" but he is not obligated, even as his kin, to obey the King's will: "But we will not enter Khazad-Dum. You will not enter Khazad-Dum."

    Consider also the words of Balin (as related by Gloin), that the Dwarves were "hemmed in a narrow place..." Why is this? We know that Durin's Folk have been greatly reduced in population by Smaug's desolation of Erebor and the great loss of lives at Azanulbizar, and that no attempt at Moria had occurred during the days of Erebor's power, so why now? Why would Balin and co. feel "hemmed in," when the wide halls of the Lonely Mountain certainly couldn't have been filled by this point? I say it is political ambition, that many Dwarves chafed under Dain's lordship and left for their own lands at the first opportunity, somewhere they could rule themselves.

    (Some of this is taking a leap on my part, but still, it's fun to speculate.)

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by HeisManziel View Post
    Consider also the words of Balin (as related by Gloin), that the Dwarves were "hemmed in a narrow place..." Why is this? We know that Durin's Folk have been greatly reduced in population by Smaug's desolation of Erebor and the great loss of lives at Azanulbizar, and that no attempt at Moria had occurred during the days of Erebor's power, so why now? Why would Balin and co. feel "hemmed in," when the wide halls of the Lonely Mountain certainly couldn't have been filled by this point? I say it is political ambition, that many Dwarves chafed under Dain's lordship and left for their own lands at the first opportunity, somewhere they could rule themselves.

    (Some of this is taking a leap on my part, but still, it's fun to speculate.)
    To add to this point, let's think abut two of the keys traits in Dwarves: greed and pride. Retaking Erebor was considered a lost cause, and the Dwarves envied the fact that not only had Smaug thrown them out of their homes, but that they had been forced to leave behind their wealth as well. After the death of Smaug and the retaking of Erebor, sure they had enormous wealth and the halls of the Lonely Mountain back...but Dwarves aren't exactly very good at knowing when to call it quits.

    The wealth of Khazad-Dum is beyond legendary. It's in a league of it's own, and if the Dwarves resented losing Erebor, then they obsessed over losing Moria. Factor in Dwarven hubris with the fact that they reclaimed Erebor - a task that was at a time considered impossible - and, to me at least, you begin to see the real motivations behind the expedition to retake Khazad-Dum.

    OF course, that's just my take on things, but it does seem to fit the established behavioural patterns of the Dwarves.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @ HeisManziel
    So you think that if Thorin would not been sitting on a pile of gold at the time but "only" been besiged by foes whoo they could rescue them from, that Dain would not come to his kings aid?
    Edit 1: (quote added)
    It is then said that Dwarves marry late, seldom before they are ninety or more, that they have few children (so many as four being rare), and continues:

    To these they are devoted, often rather fiercely: that is, they may treat them with apparent harshness (especially in the desire to ensure that they shall grow up tough, hardy, unyielding), but they defend them with all their power, and resent injuries to them even more than to themselves. The same is true of the attitude of children to parents. For an injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a life-time in achieving revenge. Since the 'kings' or heads of lines are regarded as 'parents' of the whole group, it will be understood how it was that the whole of Durin's Race gathered and marshalled itself to avenge Thrr.
    - HoME 12; The Making of Appendix A

    We can not tell what would be if the kings would gone to the Iron Hills to ask for quarters, but there's obvious they owned nothing in that land, meaning they would have to ask for what they got there even if they are kings (we can assume they have laws of ownership, being a civilized and good people, meaning not even a king can just come and grab whatever he likes like a tyrants).
    And the royal family were too proud (being Dwarves that no surprise) to live on sharity from other lords. From after the Battle of Azanulbizar:
    When the dreadful fires were in ashes the allies went away to their own countries, and Din Ironfoot led his father's people back to the Iron Hills. Then standing by the great stake, Thrin said to Thorin Oakenshield: 'Some would think this head dearly bought! At least we have given our kingdom for it. Will you come with me back to the anvil? Or will you beg your bread at proud doors?'
    'To the anvil,' answered Thorin. 'The hammer will at least keep the arms strong, until they can wield sharper tools again.'
    - Appendix A

    Yes, but now you are really lifting things out of context, Dain was the only one who had looked in and knew Durin's Bane stood inside awaiting. That Balrog rewoked the eintire population of Khazad-dm long ago, what would it not do agains the battered to half the number, sad and exhausted remnant of the army of Durin's Folk at this point in they tried to enter?
    ...
    Up the steps after him leaped a Dwarf with a red axe. It was Din Ironfoot, Nin's son. Right before the doors he caught Azog, and there he slew him, and hewed off his head. That was held a great feat, for Din was then only a stripling in the reckoning of the Dwarves. But long life and many battles lay before him, until old but unbowed he fell at last in the War of the Ring. Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear.

    When at last the battle was won the Dwarves that were left gathered in Azanulbizar. They took the head of Azog and thrust into its mouth the purse of small money, and then they set it on a stake. But no feast nor song was there that night; for their dead were beyond the count of grief. Barely half of their number, it is said, could still stand or had hope of healing.
    None the less in the morning Thrin stood before them. He bad one eye blinded beyond cure, and he was halt with a leg-wound; but he said: 'Good! We have the victory. Khazad-dm is ours! '
    But they answered: 'Durin's Heir you may be, but even with one eye you should see clearer. We fought this war for vengeance, and vengeance we have taken. But it is not sweet. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it.'
    And those who were not of Durin's Folk said also: 'Khazad-dm was not our Fathers' house. What is it to us, unless a hope of treasure? But now, if we must go without the rewards and the weregilds that are owed to us, the sooner we return to our own lands the better pleased we shall be.'
    Then Thrin turned to Din, and said: 'But surely my own kin will not desert me?'
    'No,' said Din. 'You are the father of our Folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-dm. You will not enter Khazad-dm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'

    - Appendix A
    To be a loyal subject is not to be an idiot or zombie, no, a good an loyal subject tell his king when enough is enough an tries to save both king and folk from folly.
    And kingship is not the same as dictatorship, where the leader do not have to mind either lords or people of his realm.
    Not even the kings of Gondor, a truely solified realm, could act at whim;
    A Nmenrean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say.
    -Letter 244
    Being 'even Denethor' who was a despot mind in the full authority of 'the King', to whom the lords of the fief's had sworn alligience.
    Study some feodalism and Dark Age monarchism and you'll find how completly natural this structure is.

    I think Tolkien's choice of words in the mouth of Gloin tell us quite a lot.
    `It is now many years ago,' said Glin, `that a shadow of disquiet fell upon our people. Whence it came we did not at first perceive. Words began to be whispered in secret: it was said that we were hemmed in a narrow place, and that greater wealth and splendour would be found in a wider world. Some spoke of Moria: the mighty works of our fathers that are called in our own tongue Khazad-dm; and they declared that now at last we had the power and numbers to return.'
    - FotR; The Council of Elrond
    "A shadow" upon the people, filling them with typichal Dwarven illfated lusts, in the same time as Sauron's clutches are stretching across Middle-earth? Wouldn't put my money on a mere coincidence


    Edit 2: And I know you're taking leaps, so view it rather like academic respons to your theories than personal opposition here hehe
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 03, 2013 at 09:13 PM.


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  13. #53
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I think we're just on different wavelengths here. I'm mostly just trying to back up my assertion that Dain may not have had the authority to stop Balin even if he tried. I'm not saying that Dain needs to have tyrannical powers to stop Balin from doing so, only that there are wrinkles in the political fabric of Durin's Folk that allow much leeway to independent lords.

    So you think that if Thorin would not been sitting on a pile of gold at the time but "only" been besiged by foes whoo they could rescue them from, that Dain would not come to his kings aid?
    Certainly not, I think Dain has already proven his loyalty and devotion to Thorin's line at Azanulbizar. I just don't think it's loyalty alone which motivates him. As you say, a "shadow" may be on him in that regard.

    We can not tell what would be if the kings would gone to the Iron Hills to ask for quarters, but there's obvious they owned nothing in that land, meaning they would have to ask for what they got there even if they are kings (we can assume they have laws of ownership, being a civilized and good people, meaning not even a king can just come and grab whatever he likes like a tyrants).
    And the royal family were too proud (being Dwarves that no surprise) to live on sharity from other lords. From after the Battle of Azanulbizar:
    I agree completely, they need not be tyrants. I do think there is precedence to their kings coming amongst an already settled people, however. Look only at how their kings took up residence in the Ered Mithrin, but only after most of their folk had already gathered there, presumably under other lords. They don't need to be tyrants, but if they aren't then their practices in ruling seem to allow for the superseding of (presumed) local authority in the event that the King wishes to go where the people are.


    Yes, but now you are really lifting things out of context, Dain was the only one who had looked in and knew Durin's Bane stood inside awaiting. That Balrog rewoked the eintire population of Khazad-dm long ago, what would it not do agains the battered to half the number, sad and exhausted remnant of the army of Durin's Folk at this point in they tried to enter?
    I don't think I am at all. Dain may have the avoidance of the Balrog as his primary reasoning, but the rest of Durin's Folk do not. Thrain doesn't appear terribly convinced by Dain's fear of Durin's Bain, and so I doubt all of his folk are either. So again, he need not be a tyrant, but a king's will must be regarded. Thrain's is not.

    To be a loyal subject is not to be an idiot or zombie, no, a good an loyal subject tell his king when enough is enough an tries to save both king and folk from folly.
    And kingship is not the same as dictatorship, where the leader do not have to mind either lords or people of his realm.
    Not even the kings of Gondor, a truely solified realm, could act at whim;
    No, they definitely shouldn't be. But a king in other realms still has some control over the day to day running of their lord's land. The kingship of Durin's Folk resembles more the Capetians with Dain's Angevins in the catbirds seat. That resembles more a situation wherein Balin might see himself as able to circumvent Dain's authority, yes?
    Being 'even Denethor' who was a despot mind in the full authority of 'the King', to whom the lords of the fief's had sworn alligience.
    Study some feodalism and Dark Age monarchism and you'll find how completly natural this structure is.
    But even the lords in Gondor are close enough to maintain healthy degree of over-lordship from Minas Tirith. Durin's Folk are entirely apart and separated by many miles. Their lords may have acted as kings, with Thorin, Dain and the rest acting more as revered symbols of a common kinship.(when they're not in power)
    And I have But I'm always eager to learn more! It's a vast, complicated series of eras, and I don't pretend to know all facets of them.

    "A shadow" upon the people, filling them with typichal Dwarven illfated lusts, in the same time as Sauron's clutches are stretching across Middle-earth? Wouldn't put my money on a mere coincidence
    This is an excellent point! I agree that this is the main catalyst, but even the intangible darkness of Sauron must manifest itself in some fashion, perhaps as an ambitious lord hoping to carve out a realm for himself?

    And I know you're taking leaps, so view it rather like academic respons to your theories than personal opposition here hehe
    I wouldn't be offended if you did haha

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    But they did heed their king, which they wouldn't have had to if it was any other bloke telling them to enter Khazad-dm - and they concluded it was enough. Unless the king was either to force them trough threats and physichal hurt and/or lie to them (as Sauron would had; and which given many rulers in history their authority) Thrain had to accept the councel and will of his people, which is the way for a good king to.
    Because they are subjects, not slaves nor mindless robots.
    You're still talking about the monarchy like if it was an autocracy, but that is special version of rule containing absolute monarchy which you however seems to deem the norm for monarchy, and the king as an autocrat who can demand anything and get his way simply because he has the title - and that I do firmly disagree upon.
    With over half of his folk's warriors killed or wounded, give or take, Thrain demanded more than he is entitled to at that point; his men had bled and died and at that moment still bled and died for this revenge that was fulfilled, they wanted to go home now with duty honoured, not continue down into the enormous Moria they were not gathered to nor equipped to resettle and where they still feared, Dain or not, that Durin's Bane awaited them.

    This however do not mean that they would not heed their king as a rule, just that it's not either autocrazy or complete decentralization.
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 04, 2013 at 12:31 AM.


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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Completely agree with Ngugi.
    It's only after you have lost everything, that you are free to do anything.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The nature of kingship is odd in Tolkien at least too us. In the Narn i Hurin what happens in Nargothrond is very interesting. Finrod casts off his crown and denounces his own Kingship when his people turn to the counsel of Celegorm. Celegorm in turn is such a prat that his own followers, turn to Orodreth, who is actually the legitimate ruler, who in turn loses his authority too Turin with disastrous consequences. Nor is this the only instance of rulers setting aside their own rule. In one version of Celeborn and Galadriel, they rule in Ost i Edhil. Celebrimbor and the Noldor smiths become enamoured of Annater. Galadriel then leaves for Lorien and Celeborn steps aside dwells in the city without authority, that is until they are proven right and Celeborn proves to be a pretty decent warrior and they turn back too him for a short time.

    The debate between Feanor and Fingolfin always gets peoples interest, what is forgotten is that the majority of the Noldor follow neither. They follow Finarfin, or his children. My point is it is by acclaim that people seem too rule. Aragorn is acclaimed King by the people of Gondor he does not make legal claim and debate the matter. This I think is Tolkien's view of worthy rulers.

    People choose who they follow, they are not by nature bound too any particular person because of the accident of birth. The followers seem too reflect the quality of those they follow in some instances. The actions of Celegorm's servants in Doriath compared to the actions of the followers of Maedhros and Maglor's followers at the Mouths of Sirion. The two brothers both detested the Oath, it is small wonder that some of their followers either switched sides during this fight or stood aside.
    Last edited by muller227; January 04, 2013 at 07:34 AM.

  17. #57
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Do not quite agree.

    Dain came to help out as soon as summoned to do it, and came to fight for Erebor, weither Balin came there before or not.

    Dain became the king over Durin's Folk inhertiting Thorin, since all this folk had one king, he did not become king of any geographical realm alone (or Thorin would not been king at all after all; and Dain was never king of the Iron Hills before since he had a king).

    Lastly we can tell that Balin did not go before Dain actually gave his permission. It may of course be he gave is since Balin intended to go anyway, but that seems to me the less credible interpetation than that he went once Dain gave a reluctant permission.
    I guess Ngugi the real issue is once again we have an issue that is hard to unravel because JRRT did not write all that much about it but left a lot of tantalizing seeds.

    My core point was simply with the fall of Moria Durin's house seems to have been somewhat fragmented with his people and those of the other two houses who had come to Moria scatering back to the Blue Mountains and to the many places Durin's House called there own (Grey Mountains, Iron Hills, Erebor). By the Hobbit's day it seems the Eastern Dwarves were down to polities of Dain in the Iron hills and the Mid-North Blue Mountains. All the Western Dwarves had lost their original homes so they were all new or secondary works.

    Thus I think While Dain Ironfoot was the 'King' I doubt he had either real autocratic power or even as strong a hand as a Lord of Durin's folk back in Moria had especially when facing Balin sombody who was just a hair shy of having a better claim. Certainly Dain with war in the wind and Sauron returned could not have wanted Balin to leave but I think reluctant acceptance was always going to happen.

    Other Things:

    Frodo encounters odd Dwarves in the LOTR - That says war in the far East, but why the Blue Mountains, why not Erebor? Or did most actually go there? If so Balin might have been able to find a lot of Dwarves who were not the children of Durin's house to follow him.

    I have never though Dain saw Durin's Bane in reality. Too many people Aragorn, Gandalf etc went trooping through Moria and saw nothing. I think JRRT intended it to be a moment of foreknowledge or prophecy - not that he saw the Balarog sitting just inside the door doing crosswords to kill the time while waiting to see if the Dwarves were coming in [hmm five letters Silmaril maker - ahh I hate it when they change the vowels and cheat to make a word fit that pisses me off - makes me want to kill a Noldor King... Stupid Daily Dul Guldur Oppressor, I am only doing the Gondor Free Press from now on, and if the White Lady Times did not burn my fingers I do that one as well its the most elegant and clever]
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  18. #58
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Good input muller'
    Make one correction and one addition to it.
    The correction is that the majority did not follow Finarfinor his children, as the second host in the exile is lead by Fingolfin and when he leaves few follow, Dorthonion and the Vale is not much populated and AFAIK Nagothrond's population can not match the following of Fingolfin and Turgon - though I may have to be corrected on that.
    However it's no doubt the majority chose not Fanor as leader.

    The addition is the fact that the Eldars first kings are from the beginning elected (even if that may be read as a more formal word than I intend), they were made kings as they become the leaders, when their folks of their kin chose to follow them, while far from everybody in each group (beside Vanyar) took Ingw, Finw and Elw (and Olw) as king(s).
    I'd say: you may be king without land but not without people supporting your claim haha


    @ conon'
    Noooo, that can't be the case, Tolkien would never do that to us


    I as noted in the inbetween posts do certainly not think the practical authority of the kings in periods of diaspora can be very great, concur!
    However Balin's expedition apperently awaited a (reluctant) approval from their king before leaving, or the mentioning of it being given would only been interesting if noted as in defience of the king or encouraged by the king, signifying the importance to the Dwarves in spirit and formality if not in practice to gain the king's approval. And that even if Dain could not stop them, for what we can assume, in any decent way beside discouragements, signifieing that the expedition might not occured at all, or in much smaller scale, without the king's acceptans.
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 04, 2013 at 08:03 AM.


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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    In the Silmarillion chapter Of Beleriand and its Realms, Finrods Kingdom is called the greatest by far, I have never taken this too mean simple geography only. Though I think that argument could certainly be made. We know the followers of Angrod and Aegnor were few because the highlands were barren. We know that Turgon had 1/3 of Fingolfin's house. We are also told that Gwindor marched under Fingon and the House of Fingolfin which is considered separate from the house of Finrod (my interpretation of the wording). My point was that it seems too me considering the following of Finrod in addition to those who renounced the journey and stayed with Finarfin in Aman, that at least plurality chose the third house as direct rulers. Finarfin however and Finrod in Beleriand follow Fingolfin, so Fingolfin is indeed the mightiest overall, that point I would never argue.

    The smallness of Feanor's following is not that surprising, the guy is sort of a git.

    The workings of Feanor's oath largely through the actions of Celegorm is the core of the disaster in Beleriand. The Union of Maedhros is much weakened by by the absence of Beleriands two greatest realms Nargothrond and Doriath.
    Last edited by muller227; January 04, 2013 at 08:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Yes, of course. A git who made a new,better writing system that enjoyed universal use

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