Tolkien General Discussion II

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

Haha easy answer the One Ring Only answers to Sauron !! Only him can unleash its full potential not Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo or Sam.

[Cyclops]

Pretty clear Sauron is in Dol Guldur because it is proximate to the Gladden Fields and never heard of the Shire until Gollum told him.

I suppose he may have got some notifications "Someone has put on your Ring and thought about Power" "An unknown being was diminished by your Ring but failed to become a wraith at this time" but AFAIK there were no stirrings when Gollum had it. Maybe the mountain above him blocked the signal? "Unable to locate Your Ring, please try again later" but Bilbo used it in the fileds and hedgerows of the Shiure and no Nazgul appeared until Gollum spilled the 'taters.

By the by, Gollum had the Ring and even while Sauron was up and about he never faded, but remained entirely coporeal despite an evil heart. Bluff hearty Bilbo was getting mighty stretched (not sure if he began to fade but i suspect he was close) and Frodo really did get transparent (albeit after a stab from a Morgul blade). Was Smeagol the proto-stoor somehow tougher than the wimpy born-to-rule Fallohides Hobbits?

[Krieglord]

New questions (nothing to do with sarumans ring)

1. If Saruman had crushed Rohan and the ents had not been awoken what would his next plans have been (excluding the shire)? war with the elves to the north and east or send his forces to aid Sauron? would the elves muster an army to fight Saruman?

2. Did Sauron realize it was all pointless? even if he crushed all who opposed him on middle earth he would not have really won as I imagine the valar would intervene.

[Ngugi]

1. He was already exposed to Sauron as a tratitor (he mainly worked for himself, trying to get the Ring for own might, not to help Sauron) so he would likley prepare to defend himself from Sauron's coming vengeance; perhaps hunting for the Ring attacking Gondor himself (EDIT: if he could muster any meaningful forces soon) or even try to join the powers of the West in case they dare to make deal with the devil (EDIT: Gandalf was open for it, if he redeemed)?

2. No, he belived Eru (God) did not care and Valar no longer had mandate to act in ME. He could not understand opposition not in the form of an axe in his face, such speaking hehe:

Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; and his pride grew apace.
- Sauron early in the Second Age, Of The Rings of Power and the Thid Age

Sauron could not, of course, be a 'sincere' atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Ea, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the 'change of the world' at the Downfall of Numenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath. If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwe as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals.
- HoME 10; Myths Transformed

[smoesville]

I wonder if indeed the Valar would have intervened in any way? I mean, though immensely powerful as compared to all those in ME, he would still have been nothing but a gnat when put alongside Manwë or even one of the lesser Valar. The march of the Valar sank a continent last time which is probably why they sent the Istari, to help and counsel the people of ME. Besides, S has history on his side, the Valar did nothing in all the time when he ruled ME before, it was the Númenoreans who marched on him and then the Kingdoms in Exile and the Elves (mostly). All Manwë ever did was send some bloody eagles.

[mondpeiler]

what are the Valar? Gods.
look at greek/celtic/germanic (and I'm rather sure all others peoples) sagas - in eary times, the gods often intervened in the affairs of men and the later we go (until nowadays) the less the gods intervene.
maybe because they got boring of intervening, or maybe because see that men can handle their affairs on their own.

transfer this to the third age in Middle Earth.
they see that the west can handle evil alone - so they don't help (...much - if you count Manwes eagles).

if the west would fail, then they would perhaps change their minds and come to aid - but as the story goes, they simply have no need to come.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Ah, like I said, I havent read the books yet, still reading the Hobbit Gollum seems like the kinda patsy you let guard your precioussssssss artifact of doom though. Seeing him in the movies make me think a good kick to the face would solve him....

*Sauron goes to cavern, I dont know if Sauron is a wizard or what, dont ruin it for me)
Sauron: Sup dawg I heard you got my ring of infinite power
Gollum: Want to riddlesssss? I'll eat you if you lose gollum!
Sauron: Nah, gonna break your neck and take that ring back
Gollum:....WIZARDSES ARE NOTHINGS TO MESS WIIIIIITH

Anyway, I was reading in White Dwarf magazine that theres human factions under Sauron's control or whatever. Who are they? Do they play into the story alot?

And are they in the mod BTW?

What do you want to know about Sauron?

[conon394]

Yes, large part of the world was under Sauron's dominion and humans are most common of all races.
In the movies they are seen marching in TTT and riding the mûmakil/oliphants in the battle in RotK, but they play a larger part, although almost never in detail, in the books. A large part of Sauron's army there consist of Southrons while Easterlings are further north.
They also participate at the battle at the Black Gate.

Ngugi and I disagree on this -

There are quotes that you can use from some JRRTs work that imply all of the South and East worshiped Saruon, but they are in epic form and based on Narratives espoused by Elrond not exactly an authority on the those places.

I think there is sufficient alternative evidence - 4 more dwarven clans in the East, rumors of war in the South and East, Other Kingdoms of Exiles Numenorians in the South, Trade with the Rhun Area and Lake Town, the Filed Blue Wizards who seem to have turned into small but still anti Sauron tyrants suggust Saurons grip was not so Iron clad. Also more than a few times we are told Sauron was not really looking for war, but the revelation of the Ring forced his hand. I think its likely that his ventures in other places were easier w/o the remnants of the Noldor/Eldar, the Faithful of Numenor, the The Rings and the only Dwarves (Durin's house + the residual other 2 Western ones) that were committed enemies of his.

-----------------------------------

if the west would fail, then they would perhaps change their minds and come to aid - but as the story goes, they simply have no need to come.

They could not really.

I wonder if indeed the Valar would have intervened in any way? I mean, though immensely powerful as compared to all those in ME, he would still have been nothing but a gnat when put alongside Manwë or even one of the lesser Valar.

At least as I read the HoME Morgoth did achieve his objective in that has the most powerful of all the Valar and my spending almost all his power by investing in Arda he made it His; he really did become the master of it. To come to ME and leave their little fortress of solitude the Valar would have to become either truly incarnate and thus be as vulnerable as anyone or break Arda down to its atoms to expunge Melkor and of course kill everyone.... After all ever incarnate being in Middle Earth by eating or breathing etc got a little Morgoth in them every day and in every way.

One Morgoth became bound to his incarnate form he did know fear, I am thinking the Valar did too because they never budged after they also started to become bound to their forms

[Ngugi]

Don't see the difference? I said 'large', not 'all' or even 'most' hehe - and the matter do not concern Dwarves, or Avari either for that matter, the question and my reply was concerning Men.

Though I at the same time claim we have much more narrative texts supporting more rather than less of the Men in these abandoned backwaters of Middle-earth (from a Valinor perspective) being under the dominion of Sauron, while knowing well enough about the sources clearly stating all were not, starting in Appendix A itself.

[Thangaror]

By the by, Gollum had the Ring and even while Sauron was up and about he never faded, but remained entirely coporeal despite an evil heart. Bluff hearty Bilbo was getting mighty stretched (not sure if he began to fade but i suspect he was close) and Frodo really did get transparent (albeit after a stab from a Morgul blade). Was Smeagol the proto-stoor somehow tougher than the wimpy born-to-rule Fallohides Hobbits?

To me Gollum seems pretty faded already. Also I doubt that Bilbo was close to fading, I do not know where you got this impression from. Yes, he feels the strain of having the Ring, but we do not know enough about Gollum to claim that the he did not notice the same effect.
What I remember though is that Gollum wore the Ring much more often and for longer periods of time than either Bilbo and Frodo ever did. This is also why at some point he decided to store the Ring on his island, instead of carrying it around.

Certainly, the Ring has a surprisingly strong effect on Frodo. But there are reasons for this: Sauron is aware of him and has regained strength, also Frodo is closer to Barad-dûr, and as a consequence the Ring itself is becoming stronger.

No, Smeagol certainly wasn't tougher than Bilbo and Frodo, I'd even say that due to his malicious and secretive character, he was a lot more prone to the Ring's corruption.

[Lortano]

I suppose the mountains could've blocked the ring's 'signal' but it still doesn't explain the fact that Pippin saw Bilbo use the ring to play a prank on several affluent members of Hobbit Society, but Sauron did not immediately send out an army to raze the Shire to the ground to find the ring. It could be that the malicious effect of the ring is weakened by it's link to it's master being blocked by the Misty Mountains.

However Mordor is surrounded by a mountain chain, so Sauron shouldn't have been able to sense the ring at all if this were true. Yet when Frodo puts on the ring close to the end of FotR he is spotted by the Lidless Eye and mocked coldly.

I'm not suggesting the Professor has a slight plot hole here, but I just find it odd and a little convienient for my liking.

However the Misty Moutnain Signal blocker theory has some credence. In LotR all Sauron related activities, like Saruman's Palantir, Merry looking into said palantir, Frodo's experiences with putting on the ring and the ring's nature revealing themselves after Moria, Denethor's palantir silliness, they all take place not blocked by the Misty Mountains. The only reason Frodo got caught in Eriador was because the slaves to the ring were already close.

[Krieglord]

I suppose the mountains could've blocked the ring's 'signal' but it still doesn't explain the fact that Pippin saw Bilbo use the ring to play a prank on several affluent members of Hobbit Society, but Sauron did not immediately send out an army to raze the Shire to the ground to find the ring. It could be that the malicious effect of the ring is weakened by it's link to it's master being blocked by the Misty Mountains.

However Mordor is surrounded by a mountain chain, so Sauron shouldn't have been able to sense the ring at all if this were true. Yet when Frodo puts on the ring close to the end of FotR he is spotted by the Lidless Eye and mocked coldly.

I'm not suggesting the Professor has a slight plot hole here, but I just find it odd and a little convienient for my liking.

However the Misty Moutnain Signal blocker theory has some credence. In LotR all Sauron related activities, like Saruman's Palantir, Merry looking into said palantir, Frodo's experiences with putting on the ring and the ring's nature revealing themselves after Moria, Denethor's palantir silliness, they all take place not blocked by the Misty Mountains. The only reason Frodo got caught in Eriador was because the slaves to the ring were already close.

Perhaps it was the magic of the elves and to an extent dwarves on both sides of the Misty mountains blocking the signal instead of the mountains alone?

[Lortano]

Perhaps it was the magic of the elves and to an extent dwarves on both sides of the Misty mountains blocking the signal instead of the mountains alone?

What Dwarven Magic? Their rings, their only remotely magical items, were gone. Moria had become a place of evil, surely that would've magnified the ring's signal. No, I think we can discount any Dwarven influence here.

The elven magic is reasonable, the effects do start to show once they leave Lorien. However the issue once again with this theory is that were this true, Sauron should've been blocked by his own mountains. I think Elven magic is an excellent suggestion, and for that you get some rep.

[Krieglord]

What Dwarven Magic? Their rings, their only remotely magical items, were gone. Moria had become a place of evil, surely that would've magnified the ring's signal. No, I think we can discount any Dwarven influence here.

The elven magic is reasonable, the effects do start to show once they leave Lorien. However the issue once again with this theory is that were this true, Sauron should've been blocked by his own mountains. I think Elven magic is an excellent suggestion, and for that you get some rep.

I thought Gandalf said Dwarves have a special magic of their own... or maybe that was about hobbits

And thankyou for the rep although I guess in the end the only person who knows is J.R.R.T and he is long passed

[Ngugi]

Think there is better to first gather when Sauron actually did know about the existence of the Ring (some sources claim he did not even knew it still existed at all; not knowing his defeat was bound to the One) or could sense or see the Ring, when used and not used as well as when he obviously could not find the Ring - as well as possibly his servants similar situations.
First then can you actually conclude during what circumstances he could track the Ring or if not what circumstances that may been in play to prevent it, because with those facts clearly presented it enables a qualified conclusion/theory or conclusions/theories.

Normally folks would hope for me on this for material, but this topic I have not intended to be ingulfed in

[Macilrille]

Me neither.

[Lortano]

It's a theory, with no actual written proof save reading into the situation in which Sauron could actually see the ring bearer. Nothing more.

Now I have a question. What was your reactions to the 'Children of Hurin' book? I personally thought that it was definitely a throwback to Tolkien's Norse legend inspiration. Lets be honest, there are very few happy endings in Norse Mythology, and this book has all the happiness of watching a debate in Parliament.

The book contains mass slaughter of cities, unintentional incest, mass suicide and generally just betrayal and horror. I'm definitely detecting Nordic myth here

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

What Dwarven Magic? Their rings, their only remotely magical items, were gone. Moria had become a place of evil, surely that would've magnified the ring's signal. No, I think we can discount any Dwarven influence here.

The elven magic is reasonable, the effects do start to show once they leave Lorien. However the issue once again with this theory is that were this true, Sauron should've been blocked by his own mountains. I think Elven magic is an excellent suggestion, and for that you get some rep.

Or Sauron was just in his ''yawning and getting out of bed" phase rather than ''fully awake". By this I mean that he hadn't really started to rebuild his previous power,but rather gathering his forces.

[Thangaror]

I suppose the mountains could've blocked the ring's 'signal' but it still doesn't explain the fact that Pippin saw Bilbo use the ring to play a prank on several affluent members of Hobbit Society, but Sauron did not immediately send out an army to raze the Shire to the ground to find the ring. It could be that the malicious effect of the ring is weakened by it's link to it's master being blocked by the Misty Mountains.

However Mordor is surrounded by a mountain chain, so Sauron shouldn't have been able to sense the ring at all if this were true. Yet when Frodo puts on the ring close to the end of FotR he is spotted by the Lidless Eye and mocked coldly.

I'm not suggesting the Professor has a slight plot hole here, but I just find it odd and a little convienient for my liking.

However the Misty Moutnain Signal blocker theory has some credence. In LotR all Sauron related activities, like Saruman's Palantir, Merry looking into said palantir, Frodo's experiences with putting on the ring and the ring's nature revealing themselves after Moria, Denethor's palantir silliness, they all take place not blocked by the Misty Mountains. The only reason Frodo got caught in Eriador was because the slaves to the ring were already close.

Why are you guys still philosophizing about this? This discussion is revolving around nothing.

The Shire is friggin' 600 miles! from Dol Guldur and almost 1000 miles from Barad-dûr! How on earth should Sauron have noticed the Ring over such a distance, mountains or no mountains?
Heck, Sauron does not X-ray eyes, nor does he have a GRPS (Global Ring Positioning System), nor is there a EWS ("Ring-wielding hero launch from soviet elven military base Imladris. Initiate DEFCON 2."). It seems Sauron was not even noticing the Ring when Bilbo was using it in Mirkwood!

Sauron noticed the Ring being used entire three times! Seriously, n is just too small to really derive any sort of conclusion from this, not even to speak of significance here.

And during every single one of the three incidences, criteria are matched that are either abnormal or simply are entirely different from the Shire- or Misty Mountains-setting.

• The first time was, when Frodo sat on Amon Hen. This is undoubtly a very exposed position, plus a magical site. The Seat of Seeing obviously did work in two ways, for those who had the abilities (this might be Sauron's palantír or it's simply due to the fact he's a Maia). And when Frodo gazed into Barad-dûr's direction, he as well could've knocked at the Black Tower's front door.

• The second time, Sam was wielding the Ring inside Mordor! a meager 70 miles from Barad-dûr. Of course Sauron noticed, but he was utterly unable to pin Sam down, probably assuming the Ring somewhere beyond Anduin with Aragorn (He really should have paid more attention at school, he would've known about triangulation).

• And talking about the third time, when Frodo claimed the Ring in Sammath Naur, really is a waste of breath.

Sauron simply was never able to track the Ring!!!
He only was, in a very limited way, able to notice the Ring when it was "activated", i.e. someone wore it. And even then, he only would've been able to notice this, if the person who wielded it was a) of extraordinary stature, b) did knowingly claim power over the Ring or c) was close to Sauron's own position.

Except Frodo and maybe Isildur no one ever matched criteria a) and b). And there is only one time when criterion c) is matched (and it's not like knocking and Barad-dûr's front door) and Sauron could've calculated the Ring's position, which was the Cirith Ungol incidence, and even then he utterly failed.

I really don't understand where you guys got this fixed idea from, Sauron could detect his shiny trinket all over Middle-earth. His radius of perception was obviously very limited, maybe 150, 200 miles, and he seemingly could only determine direction, but never an exact distance.

The Shire and Gollum's cave are simply way too far away for Sauron ever to notice ridiculous Hobbitses wearing his Ring.

[Flinn]

• The second time, Sam was wielding the Ring inside Mordor! a meager 70 miles from Barad-dûr. Of course Sauron noticed, but he was utterly unable to pin Sam down, probably assuming the Ring somewhere beyond Anduin with Aragorn (He really should have paid more attention at school, he would've known about triangulation).

Even though I agree with you about the general idea of your post, I have a personal doubt about the point above.

IIRC Sam took out the Ring before he stepped into Mordor (when he went back from the tunnels and to the gates of Cirith Ungol).. isn't it so??

IMO, anybody using the Ring inside Mordor borders would have been spotted immediatly or very quickly by Sauron

Flinn