Tolkien General Discussion II

[Poosticks7]

Perhaps Elrond sent a message to warn the Shire to Bree, but a certain fat innkeeper forgot to pass it on.

[smoesville]

I think mostly this highlights the hubris and selfishness of the Noldor and all Elves (to a lesser extent). Though i've always liked Elrond i get the feeling that while he and his household are still alive, they are just afraid of death. They're the equivalent of a vietnam vet with the 100 yard stare in a 10 yard room They're afraid to act and unless the 'big' players are involved, they don't take a bit of notice. The events in the Shire can be explained as; he wanted Merry and Pippin to go back to avert danger, but only because he has no intention of interfering directly himself.

[Curufin]

A completely unrelated question but I've always wondered which online Tolkien wikipedia is the most accurate one?

Off the top of my head there's:

The Encyclopedia of Arda
Thain's Book
Tolkien Gateway
LOTR Wiki
aswell as tolkien articles on wikipedia itself.

I generally don't trust LOTR wiki, there's been times when I've been reading it and it generally lacks enough credible sources. Thain's book I've always felt is ok but it generally lacks the amount of content as the others.

I'm unsure on the other 2, and the articles on wikipedia seem pretty accurate, although because of this they are generally brief.

What are the thoughts of the lore masters on this?

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

A completely unrelated question but I've always wondered which online Tolkien wikipedia is the most accurate one?

Off the top of my head there's:

The Encyclopedia of Arda
Thain's Book
Tolkien Gateway
LOTR Wiki
aswell as tolkien articles on wikipedia itself.

I generally don't trust LOTR wiki, there's been times when I've been reading it and it generally lacks enough credible sources. Thain's book I've always felt is ok but it generally lacks the amount of content as the others.

I'm unsure on the other 2, and the articles on wikipedia seem pretty accurate, although because of this they are generally brief.

What are the thoughts of the lore masters on this?

Well, I personally dislike Wikipedia for being so dry [I KNOW Sauron is fictional character!], but generally I trust it. LOTR Wikia is film facts, fanfiction and maybe something from the Books thrown in for variety, and I hate that wiki so much.Tolkien Gateway isn't bad and generally tries to be as accurate as possible.Encyclopedia of Arda, is accurate, but it suffers from lacking any visual component and being in very bright colours. I don't know much about the Thain's book though.

[Ngugi]

LotR Wiki is the worst out there
Encyklopedia Arda is very reliable and have interesting extra info like what names mean translated, but generally limited description and seldom any sources make it lacking IMO, further the amount of HoME sources vary much, but the LotR, Silmarillion, UT and Hobbit information is very complete.
Tolkien Gateway is generally OK, much better than LotR Wiki but still many times I noticed interpetations stated as facts
Thrain's Book I've seldom used but it seemed fair the times I've done so IIRC
Normal Wikipedia I often use, it is as a rule accurate even though I mainly use it to get directions to the sources

[Curufin]

Hmm thanks guys, always did think LOTR wiki looked suspect, also unsure about Tolkien gateway still. I guess now I'll stick to Encyclopedia of Arda and normal wikipedia for now, they may be dry but accuracy is the most important thing in these matters.

[smoesville]

I have a question for you, why did Gil-Gilad refuse to treat with Sauron when he came to him? Did Sauron actually say who he was and just played up the fact that he had repented to the Valar? Or was it a more instinctual thing on Gil-Gilads part where he just didn't like the look of him or to paraphrase Sam; he looked fair but felt foul.

[Ngugi]

Men he found the easiest to sway of all the peoples of the Earth; but long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power; and he went far and wide among them, and his hue was still that of one both fair and wise. Only to Lindon he did not come, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming, and though they knew not who in truth he was they would not admit him to that land.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

[conon394]

There is another quote somewhere and I think it really carried weight is that Galadriel she could not remember any Ainur like who Saroun claimed to be. There were not all that many Noldor exiles left (and unlikely anyone but Maglor of Her stature and lore) and I think the fact she did not recognize S's disguise must have also tipped the balance of the doubts of Elrond and Gil Galad.

[smoesville]

Thanks Ngugi and Conan

On another note, i was reading about Eorl in the Appendices and i noticed this;

Men said of them that Béma (whom the Eldar call Oromë)...

It made me wonder, is it listed anywhere what the different names of the Valar for the peoples of ME. As in do Dale call Oromë something else again? What are the other Gods known as to the Middlemen? Also, though this may be impossible to tell, what are the Westron names of the Gods, or are they one and the same of that of the Northmen?

[Ngugi]

@ conon'
Indirectly found in UT AFAIK, but if anything more precise it's from a HoME perhaps?

@ smoesville
To my knowledge Oromë is the only Vala who have a name in the tongues of Men. The only other name not in the tongues of Ainur or Elves ought to be Mahal for Aulë, but that's Khuzdul naturally

[smoesville]

Did any of the Middlemen have contact with the Valar (Vala is singular right?)? Obviously the Edain would have since they marched when they were called and of course they would have used the Elven terms for them.

[Thangaror]

I doubt it. Oromë hasn't shown up in ME since the Elves marched west. At this time Men for sure had not awoken. Maybe they had contact with Ossë, Uínen and, huge maybe, Ulmo.

[smoesville]

So how would the Men of ME (those not of the Edain) have come to know Oromë? Were the Rohirrim just passing down the legend from when the Valar marched, though that begs the question of how they could have known them since they would have refused the call to arms.

[Lortano]

So how would the Men of ME (those not of the Edain) have come to know Oromë? Were the Rohirrim just passing down the legend from when the Valar marched, though that begs the question of how they could have known them since they would have refused the call to arms.

It could be that they know him and perhaps worshipped him in the distant past. The Rohirrim love their horsemen, and Orome is Lord of the Hunt. It sort of makes sense that the two would go together, although I don't have any sourced material to prove that.

NGUGI!

[Ngugi]

Apperently still during the Second Age Oromë still on occation rode in Middle-earth. This is said by Aldarion (ca 700-1098), heir of the king of Númenor, to his wife.

"I will," said Aldarion. "It shall be as soon as I return, it you will wait." But seeing the grief in her face he was moved, and a thought came to him. "It shall be now," he said. "It shall be before this year is done. And then I will fit out such a ship as the Venturers made never yet, a Queen's house on the water. And you shall sail with me, Erendis, under the grace of the Valar, of Yavanna and of Oromë whom you love; you shall sail to lands where I shall show you such woods as you have never seen, where even now the Eldar sing; or forests wider than Númenor, free and wild since the beginning of days, where still you may hear the great horn of Oromë the Lord."
- UT; Aldarion and Elendris

Whcih is quite in line with his character;

Oromë is a mighty lord. If he is less strong than Tulkas, he is more dreadful in anger; whereas Tulkas laughs ever, in sport or in war, and even in the face of Melkor he laughed in battles before the Elves were born. Oromë loved the lands of Middle-earth, and he left them unwillingly and came last to Valinor; and often of old he passed back east over the mountains and returned with his host to the hills and the plains.
- Valaquenta

[smoesville]

That makes sense, it also explains why of all the Valar he is named by the Middle Men of ME.

[Zimmy]

I have a question about Unfinished Tales, we know that the Druedain had statues that inspired fear in orcs, and they did not pass unless in great numbers. Why is this? There's also the thing about one of them leaving a statue to guard a man of Brethil, and the statue killed the orcs and stamped out their fire, and later when the Druedain came back he had burned feet.

Is it one of those 'subtle magic' things that are sometimes in the books?

[Dunadd]

Hi I have a general question about emblems of armies of middle earth. Why every good race have same symbolism that solar cross on death cult? Rohan, dwarves, dale, gondor and arnor all of them includes that emblem on their flank.

I think the info on this link (basically Christian cross symbol in Northern Europe included elements of earlier pagan sun worship, modifying them so Jesus was meant to willingly sacrifice himself to help others, a change from human sacrifice but with some similarities to it) along with the fact that Tolkien was drawing on dark age and viking age Northern and Western European mythology might explain it.

That would also explain why the Rohirrim are chanting "Death! Death! Death!" in some of the battles in LOTR the book

P.s I am NOT advocating the religious views on the link - i just found it googling and thought some of the info in it might be relevant to your question (and can't vouch for it's accuracy, though it sounds plausible)

I have a question which has nothing to do with the statements above : it concerns Dale and the Bardians . It is said that King Brand ruled over a powerful kingdom , which Dale being the main city . His kingdom stretch from Celduin , to the west and South , and Carnen river in the east ; if it was the case , then that was a powerful kingdom . How many men could he have recruited against the Men of Rhun ? I read somewhere it was between 5 to 6000 soldiers . Was it enough to counter attack Rhun ?

They were many more than Bard's folk , and the only reason why they were defeated was because of the defeat of Sauron in the South , but also because Erebor was well defended by Dwarves . I wonder how the remaining Men of Dale and the Dwarves have managed to drive away the forces of Rhun .

Well historical Total War games and mods are really alternate history - you don't expect that it'll go exactly the way it did historically or there'd be no point playing the game at all. And it's the same with Third Age Total War even though it's based on a made up history of a fantasy world - you're playing a "what if?" version of the War of the Ring, not replaying the war exactly as it turned out in the books. You have the chance to change what happened if you can manage to.

[Krieglord]

About Sarumans ring

On this site http://scifi.stackexchange.com/quest...-sarumans-ring a user is citing T, The Treason of Isengard, (HoME 7), VI, note 28 as saying an earlier draft made Saruman's ring one of the 19

So Im guessing it was something supposed to have more significance that Tolkien changed his mind on.

And another user made a good point

As an aside, although Gandalf the Grey appeared subordinate to Saruman the White, Cirdan gave Gandalf this ring. (Gandalf himself says Saruman is greatest of their order; Cirdan sensed a greater good in Gandalf.)

However, as stated, Saruman at least temporarily defeated and imprisoned Gandalf, so Saruman's newly forged Ring must have been significantly powerful.

Sarumans ring must have been more powerful then Narya the Ring of Fire which is the ring given to gandalf http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Narya

Bringing up another point

Why didnt Saruman take Narya when Gandalf was at his weak point.