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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #21
    FC Groningen's Avatar Kihei
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Balin's party arrived 2989 and were all finally killed 2994, 24-25 years before the Fellowship was created.
    Ehh what the hell? No one thought to even send a messenger after silence for 20/25 years?

    edit: It's like Britain lost their overseas colonies and not knowing it for 25 years and only after France passed by, by coincidence and being kind enough to send a letter.

    Travel between Moria and the Lonely Mountain remained possible as well as Gloin described, despite the price the Beornings had to pay.
    Last edited by FC Groningen; January 01, 2013 at 04:41 PM.

  2. #22
    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrr View Post
    His throne was in the chamber, but Tolkien Gateway states they did find much treasure and the axe of Durin.
    And what is their source for that? It may be true, but Tolkien Gateway is not much more of a source than the films are. Use primary sources!

    It is said in the Book of Mazarbul (I cannot remember its official name, I hate correcting papers) that they found Mithril, but that does not mean they colonised all Khazad Dm. Consider its size, "The Mines of Moria was vast and intricate beyond the imagination of Gimli, Glin's son, dwarf of the mountain-race though he was" and "'There must have been a mighty crowd of dwarves here at one time' said Sam; 'and all of them busier than badgers for five hundred years to make all this, and most in hard rock too! What did they do it all for? They didn't live in these darksome holes surely?'
    'These are not holes,' said Gimli. 'This is the great realm and city of the Dwarrowdelf. And of old it was not darksome, but full of light and splendour, as is still remembered in our songs.'
    He rose and standing in the dark began to chant in a deep voice, while the echoes ran off into the roof.

    The world was young, the mountains green,
    No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
    No words were laid on stream or stone,
    When Durin woke and walked alone.
    He named the nameless hills and dells;
    He drank from yet untasted wells;
    He stooped and looked in Mirrormere,
    And saw a crown of stars appear,
    As gems upon a silver thread,
    Above the shadow of his head.

    The world was fair, the mountains tall,
    In Elder Days before the fall
    Of mighty kings in Nargothrond
    And Gondolin, who now beyond
    The Western Seas have passed away:
    The world was fair in Durin's Day.

    A king he was on carven throne
    In many-pillared halls of stone
    With golden roof and silver floor,
    And runes of power upon the door.
    The light of sun and star and moon
    In shining lamps of crystal hewn
    Undimmed by cloud or shade of night
    There shone for ever fair and bright.

    There hammer on the anvil smote,
    There chisel clove, and graver wrote;
    There forged was blade, and bound was hilt;
    The delver mined, the mason built.
    There beryl, pearl, and opal pale,
    And metal wrought like fishes' mail,
    Buckler and corslet, axe and sword,
    And shining spears were laid in hoard.

    Unwearied then were Durin's folk;
    Beneath the mountains music woke:
    The harpers harped, the minstrels sang,
    And at the gates the trumpets rang.

    The world is grey, the mountains old,
    The forge's fire is ashen-cold;
    No harp is wrung, no hammer falls:
    The darkness dwells in Durin's halls;
    The shadow lies upon his tomb
    In Moria, in Khazad-dum.
    But still the sunken stars appear
    In dark and windless Mirrormere;
    There lies his crown in water deep,
    Till Durin wakes again from sleep.
    "

    That is not a place that a little colony of Erebor Dwarves cleanse and recolonise fast. Most likely they would set up a base of operations then start to look for ways to finance it (Mithrill most of all). And hope to expand slowly with kinsmen lured there by their success if they achieve any. As for his Lordship, historically there has been many Kings who did not even hold land and lots of Roman Emperors holding nothing but a province, and army and ambition, why would a descendant of Durin not call himself Lord of Moria if he in fact secured a small enclave of it? It sort of stregthens his right to the place, attracts more subjects and is in general a good PR stunt.


    Edit, consider the fact that Khazad-Dm was so strong and populated that even as Sauron crushed Hollin and drove Gil-Galad's Noldor in front of him like the storm drives dry leaves. He could not even damage Moria when he tried. Only from within by bad luck (and decline if I recall correctly) and delving too deep (hybris?) could Moria be taken by hostile forces.
    Last edited by Macilrille; January 01, 2013 at 05:27 PM.

  3. #23
    Richard of Gloucester's Avatar Ironfoot
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Lol, better than LOTR wiki.

  4. #24
    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Still second hand and somebody else's interpretation. Only primary sources are reliable to some extent. And as you see they tell us that Moria was absolutely huge.

    I have to go back to correcting papers, but I am certain Ngugi will help me by looking in the appendixes and in UT, I am pretty certain both have more information and as he is done with his "Who Moderate..." he will need something to do in order to not go idle and get bad traits ;-)

  5. #25
    Ngugi's Avatar Merry Ferritmas!
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Hey, I'm busy working on DCI: Last Alliance, I'm not lazy just cause I don't do comics at the moment

    When did I sign up for this...........
    Well, well, here's a bunch on Moria size
    Red is of more importance;

    `There is the land where our fathers worked of old, and we have wrought the image of those mountains into many works of metal and of stone, and into many songs and tales. They stand tall in our dreams: Baraz, Zirak, Shathr.
    `Only once before have I seen them from afar in waking life, but I know them and their names, for under them lies Khazad-dm, the Dwarrowdelf, that is now called the Black Pit, Moria in the Elvish tongue. Yonder stands Barazinbar, the Redhorn, cruel Caradhras; and beyond him are Silvertine and Cloudyhead: Celebdil the White, and Fanuidhol the Grey, that we call Zirak-zigil and Bundushathr.
    - FotR; The Ring Goes South, just to point out it streached under three mountains


    The passage twisted round a few turns, and then began to descend. It went steadily down for a long while before it became level once again. The air grew hot and stifling, but it was not foul, and at times they felt currents of cooler air upon their faces, issuing from half-guessed openings in the walls. There were many of these. In the pale ray of the wizard's staff, Frodo caught glimpses of stairs and arches and of other passages and tunnels, sloping up, or running steeply down, or opening blankly dark on either side. It was bewildering beyond hope of remembering.
    Gimli... was not... troubled by the mere darkness in itself. Often the wizard consulted him at points where the choice of way was doubtful; but it was always Gandalf who had the final word. The Mines of Moria were vast and intricate beyond the imagination of Gimli, Glin's son, dwarf of the mountain-race though he was.
    - FotR; A Journey in the Dark (already quoted but anyway


    There were not only many roads to choose from, there were also in many places holes and pitfalls, and dark wells beside the path in which their passing feet echoed. There were fissures and chasms in the walls and floor, and every now and then a crack would open right before their feet. The widest was more than seven feet across.... The noise of churning water came up from far below, as if some great mill-wheel was turning in the depths.
    - FotR; A Journey in the Dark


    Before [Gandalf] stood a wide dark arch opening into three passages: all led in the same general direction, eastwards; but the left-hand passage plunged down, while the right-hand climbed up, and the middle way seemed to run on, smooth and level but very narrow...
    - FotR; A Journey in the Dark


    [For] a second they saw a vast roof far above their heads upheld by many mighty pillars hewn of stone. Before them and on either side stretched a huge empty hall; its black walls, polished and smooth as glass, flashed and glittered. Three other entrances they saw, dark black arches: one straight before them eastwards, and one on either side.
    - FotR; A Journey in the Dark


    'How long is that going to take us? ' asked Frodo.
    'I cannot say,' answered Gandalf. 'It depends on many chances. But going straight, without mishap or losing our way, we shall take three or four marches, I expect. It cannot be less than forty miles from West-door to East-gate in a direct line, and the road may wind much.'
    - FotR; A Journey in the Dark


    'I now know where we are. This must be, as Gimli says, the Chamber of Mazarbul; and the hall must be the twenty-first of the North-end. Therefore we should leave by the eastern arch of the hall, and bear right and south, and go downwards. The Twenty-first Hall should be on the Seventh Level, that is six above the level of the Gates.'
    - FotR; The Bridge of Khazad-dm
    The last naturally starting to give a fair impression.
    Least 7 levels up and down and presumably more, across a distance of forthy miles - and that on the shorter west-east side, not telling distance counting north-south.



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  6. #26
    Richard of Gloucester's Avatar Ironfoot
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Don't treat me like I'm a child. Not cool. I know that Moria is big...

  7. #27
    FC Groningen's Avatar Kihei
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    It's commonly known on how vast Moria was, but I didn't think "retaking Moria" equalised living over the entire mountain. Gandalf stated the moment the fellowship entered the 21st hall, that these were the living quarters of Moria in the days of old, so the Dwarves never lived across the entire mountain range; just near the east side with some guard posts or "fortresses" elsewhere, like the Hollin Gate or the guard room near the 3 bows. I think this will come down to a matter of definition. How much would Balin's people need to occupy of Moria before it could be called retaken, albeit temporary. The book showed that Balin's people did have a force at the west gate and expeditions to the lower depths were taken. Again, up to the reader probably to consider Moria retaken or not. Also depends on whether you consider all of Moria a city/settlement, like in the game or a realm.

    edit: by looking at your descriptions, I can hardly call Moria as a whole a city.

    This is just for the sake of argument of course.

  8. #28
    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Thanks Ngugi. You signed up by usually agreeing with me and having the same knowledge of and interest in Lore ;-)

    FC compare with a surface realm then if you will, Arnor will suffice. In FA 16 Elessar goes North and starts to rebuild Annminas, and probably a few other key places as well. Can he be considered King of Arnor? Deffo. Does he control all its former lands? Not at all. Does he have a fraction of its former power and population there? I would not say so either, yet he recolonises it and can call himself the rightful Lord. And as he has no Balrog and horde of Orks to contend with, The Reunited Kingdom will become a strong power.

    In a way Balin was too early. Had he waited two generations, it would probably have succeeded.

    It is important to understand that Erebor, which in itself is much smaller than Khazad-Dm sends only a fraction of its population with Balin. In no way could they control, such a vast realm. They could control parts of it, we agree, but not all. They could hold an enclave and slowly expand from there, as the Fourth Age would probably see Men do in Arnor.


    And Thror, nobody is treating you as a child, we are attempting to enlighten you, but if you do not mind me saying so, you reaction by telling us not to treat you as something we did not could come across to some as a wee bit immature. Which is probably not true, so take no offense- I am trying a piece of helpful advice after all, not an insult.

    Just as my necessary brewity and hurry is making me come across as an arrogant b*stard right now. Which I am not and which is not the intension.

  9. #29
    Richard of Gloucester's Avatar Ironfoot
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Basically, you chastised me for using Tolkien gateway and tried to enlighten me on something I already know (a misunderstanding, nobody's fault) I was simply too tired to quote from the book. But if the need arises, then I shall. But it doesn't really look like a debate is going on here as everyone is mostly in agreement.

  10. #30
    Ngugi's Avatar Merry Ferritmas!
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Seems we have irritation growing over something that should not be needed to here, as consensus is shared whatever been percived so keep it friendly and constructive; no one mentioned and no one forgotten



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  11. #31
    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrr View Post
    Basically, you chastised me for using Tolkien gateway and tried to enlighten me on something I already know (a misunderstanding, nobody's fault) I was simply too tired to quote from the book. But if the need arises, then I shall. But it doesn't really look like a debate is going on here as everyone is mostly in agreement.
    That was not chastisement, allow me to show you some real chastisement... *breathes in deeply to start shouting...;-) or have a look here ;-)

    Tired I can relate to. I thought from your post and quote that you and the Dutchman interpreted Balin's small band as retaking all of Moria, such is the "wonders" of internet communication. I did not see my mild admonishment as chastiting... the wonders of net communication.


    No worries Ngugi doubleposter, I am not irritated, are you Thror? And except for the Dutchman we seem to agree. So I will to bed, sleep well all.

    Edit, first walk the ferret...
    Last edited by Macilrille; January 01, 2013 at 07:23 PM.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Oh no, I just said that he apparently found lots of treasure, which was due to the re colonising. But of course such an expedition could not hold it for long - they had barely taken the chamber and a few other segments of Moria before Balin was shot and the goblin host bottlenecked them in.

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    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Actually, that is something to discuss- unless we agree there as well- cause AFAICR the Book of ... the one they read from, only says that they have found and started to mine mithril.

    Cya tomorrow.

    Edit, the Gateway is correct. Though I still trust only primary sources.
    'Well, I can read no more for a long way,' said Gandalf, 'except the word gold, and Durin's Axe and something helm. [...] and I can see we found truesilver, and later the word wellforged, and then something, I have it! mithrill
    So they did find three artefacts and some wealth, though we are not told how much.
    Last edited by Macilrille; January 01, 2013 at 07:36 PM.

  14. #34
    k/t's Avatar Auxiliarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by FC Groningen View Post
    Ehh what the hell? No one thought to even send a messenger after silence for 20/25 years?
    No news is good news.

  15. #35
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    A question on the manner of Balin's leaving for Moria: In Council of Elrond, Gloin states that "Dain did not give [them] leave willingly." I usually take this to mean he was against their leaving in only his personal opinion yet gives them leave eventually anyways, but the wording of the text seems to indicate that Dain is compelled to let them leave against his will. Am I reading too much into this, or does Dain's kingship hold less water than it seems?

    Also, is Durin's Axe the axe of THE Durin? Ya know, the first one? Why would they leave something as important as that behind them?

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    Macilrille's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I do not think they had much choice, a Balrog was roaming their realm after all.

    As for Balin's kingship, let me ask you instead how much water you think it holds? If you look through the sources, what kind of King was Balin and the other dwarven Kings?

  17. #37
    mondpeiler's Avatar Hastatas Prior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I think with "Dain did not give [them] leave willingly." is meant, that he would have liked to have Balin at his side.
    perhaps they argued over that and Dain is not happy with it. but nonetheless it is Balins will, so Dain let's him go.

    to me it sounds not like a dispute/conflict.
    I don't know how to really express it understandable in english, so I'll use an example:
    more like your father has a bakery and he has the idea that you will overtake it one day.
    but you get the idea to go to austrailia and breed cattle.
    he then may not let you leave "willingly", because he had different plans for the future.
    that does not mean that he does something like locking you in your room.
    he may not be pleased by your decision, but he accepts it.

    same with Dain and Balin here.
    Dain accepts Balins leave, but he'S not happy with it at all.

  18. #38
    Ngugi's Avatar Merry Ferritmas!
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I concur with mondpeiler, it mean Dain did not want them to go but wanted Balin and his fellows to stay, and thus dids not gave them leave willingly.
    In difference to if he had given it willingly, then he apprenetly would been glad if Balin left to setttle in a deadly dangerous ruin where Dain personally knew Durin's bane still hid, far across the Wilderness- and we can assume he did not wanted Balin ill
    However it is to Dains credit he's not a dictator as Balin & C/O was really intended to go; what would he do? Toss them in jail? haha



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  19. #39
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Pili Posterior
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    I concur with mondpeiler, it mean Dain did not want them to go but wanted Balin and his fellows to stay, and thus dids not gave them leave willingly.
    In difference to if he had given it willingly, then he apprenetly would been glad if Balin left to setttle in a deadly dangerous ruin where Dain personally knew Durin's bane still hid, far across the Wilderness- and we can assume he did not wanted Balin ill
    However it is to Dains credit he's not a dictator as Balin & C/O was really intended to go; what would he do? Toss them in jail? haha
    Did Balin even declare himself King? All I remember was being Lord of Moria.

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    Richard of Gloucester's Avatar Ironfoot
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    IIRC it was just lord.

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