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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #361
    Leaf-Fan-Forever's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I have a question regarding Sauron, Numenor, and the Ring during the 2nd Age. In 1600 S.A., Sauron forges the One Ring, and by 2251 S.A. the Nazgul are in the open. In 3262 S.A., the Numenorians take Sauron prisoner to their Island. Where is the One Ring at this point? Saurons physical body is destroyed in the Downfall of Numenor, so he would have lost the Ring if he had it with him. Does he entrust it to the Nazgul? Or hide it away in some confine of Barad-Dur? Perhaps no one can answer but I'm curious to see what you guys think...

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    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    That Tolkien answered; Sauron had it with him.
    See this;
    http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/History.html#RingNumenor

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  3. #363
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by MumboJumbo View Post
    "He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king - not yet." (The Stairs of Cirith Ungol)
    ...and thought 'does that imply that nearer the end Frodo would have been able to command or destroy the WK?'

    ...And the quote, at the end of RotK, Maybe the journey he made across the whole world made him more a lot stronger in will, and the power he wielded over gollum (i remember he said that wearing the ring he could tell gollum to jump off a cliff, and he would) meant that he had experience in dominating others' minds.
    I suspect the stuff Frodo "knew" on the steps was just the Ring twisting his mind, tempting him with power, and the reason the Eye trembled was the proximity of the Ring to destruction, rather than the threat of a contest of wills.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    ...I doubt a gathering of Eagles with an ominous flight path would be unmarked or uncontested....

    Yes there are plenty of things up the Black Hand's sleeve, like the forcefield at Cirith Ungol.

    Sauron was playing the end-game of a long long uber-turtle/massive build up, laying his plans and retreating when he felt the least threat (eg falling back from Dool Guldur), sending out Nazgul at first in stealth mode (rather than on fell beasts with flaming swors as at Pelennor) and putting forth armies in stages, orcs and southrons in the first wave, Easterlings and Olog Hai at the Black Gate.

    The guy had a spawn of Ungoliant as a watchdog on a little used side path, Eru only knows what was crouched inside the gate of Barad Dur. Corrupted Storm Giants to launch rubble flak? Air-capable Fastitocalon? Heinkalagon He 162 mini-Drakes?

    Aside from whatever nasties Sauron had (and no doubt he'd thought of and prepared for Eagles, seeing the role they played at Thangorodrim as well as BoFA) there remains his known power to influence the world such as the possibility of generating a storm mentioned above and maybe even detonating the mountain so the eagle's lungs filled with ashes.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #364

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The guy had a spawn of Ungoliant as a watchdog on a little used side path, Eru only knows what was crouched inside the gate of Barad Dur. Corrupted Storm Giants to launch rubble flak? Air-capable Fastitocalon? Heinkalagon He 162 mini-Drakes?
    he was the lieutenant of Morogoth who used the same ploys like in the battle of unnumbered tears when he released all the the dragons and balrogs when all seemed lost.

    i always wondered why didn't Sauron try using other tactics. why did he wait to launch his army he could have destroyed Gondor years before especially when the last king of Gondor died. it seems to me he gave the allies plenty of time to gather their forces. why didnt he step in when smaug was destroyed he was right there in mirkwood but instead of staying to fight he fled to mordor.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elven Warrior View Post
    he was the lieutenant of Morogoth who used the same ploys like in the battle of unnumbered tears when he released all the the dragons and balrogs when all seemed lost.

    i always wondered why didn't Sauron try using other tactics. why did he wait to launch his army he could have destroyed Gondor years before especially when the last king of Gondor died. it seems to me he gave the allies plenty of time to gather their forces. why didnt he step in when smaug was destroyed he was right there in mirkwood but instead of staying to fight he fled to mordor.
    My feeling is he was shattered by the loss of the Ring, and was playing an ultra conservative game with all cards held to the chest.

    The last King of Gondor was slain by the WitchKing who otherwise hid in an unassailable fortress: Sauron had not yet returned then (he came back about 400 years after that) and the forces of darkness were lurking rather than expanding.

    Certainly Sauron eventually found some way to rebuild the power lost when he lost the Ring, as he commanded armies that massively outnumbered his enemies (although its had to say if he was more powerful than before, as his enemies were weaker and more divided than in the Last Alliance).

    I wonder how he did this? I imagione he reaped some sort of power from his subjects, perhaps converting fear or souls into mana. Maybe he made a new Ring, or some similar tech, but not filled with his own power, instead reaping the power of others.

    When Smaug fell the Necromancer was facing an assault by the White Council, and Saruman seems to have been still firmly on the side of good: also Rohan was undiminished, and Mordor not yet rebuilt to its former strength. All he had was Minas Morgul and a tenuous hold on Dol Guldur: Gondor was Kingless but still held Harondor and Rohan had recovered form the Long Winter had rid itself of orcs and was expanding westward at the expense of the Dunlendings.

    A few decades later and the scene had changed in Sauron's favour: the east and South united under his rule, orcs multiplying once more, new breeds of orcs, trolls and flying beasts rolling into service, a wizard corrupted and a Steward driven mad.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  6. #366
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Just note that followers/worshippers do not feed anyone power, only ego

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  7. #367
    FC Groningen's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Sauron's strategy seemed perfectly fine to me. Have his servants wreck havoc upon his enemies, while they sit there and do nothing. He built up his forces and rallied the eastern and southern lands to his banner until he felt he was ready. And he would have won indeed, if it wasn't for the army of the dead, the Witch King dying in battle, or the Ring being tossed in the fire during the battle at the Black Gate.


    Noticed something else I was wondering about. As far as I know, the hobbits received similar swords from the Barrows. Frodo stabbed the Witch King on Wheatertop, but didn't inflict much damage with it and as Aragorn said, these weapons couldn't really harm him. Yet, Merry stabbed the Witch King on the Pelennor Fields and did significant damage and some might even say, it was he that broke the protection of "prophesy". How is it possible?

  8. #368
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Elven Warrior View Post
    i always wondered why didn't Sauron try using other tactics. why did he wait to launch his army he could have destroyed Gondor years before especially when the last king of Gondor died. it seems to me he gave the allies plenty of time to gather their forces. why didnt he step in when smaug was destroyed he was right there in mirkwood but instead of staying to fight he fled to mordor.
    Something you forget is the power of Gondor at the time of the last king, only a few years before when they sent a force to crush Angmar, everyone in the North was astonished at the power and size of their army which was only a portion of the whole afaik.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  9. #369
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Noticed something else I was wondering about. As far as I know, the hobbits received similar swords from the Barrows. Frodo stabbed the Witch King on Wheatertop, but didn't inflict much damage with it and as Aragorn said
    Frodo missed and JRRT is explicit in a bit of text that did not make the UT - the Blades were both special and could kill the Nazgul

    "Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him [Witch King (my edit)] as the Mordor-Knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end)"

    Then altogether the the full 'Hunt for the Ring' really should be in the Appendix of the LOTR because it shows why the Nazgul were so tentative. First recall Sauron only thought somebody else would want to the Ring (as he knew Saruman would like to have done) so they were supposed to be under cover. Second they were screwing up instead of quickly getting the Ring the whole place was on Alert. Rangers were about, uber Noldor, Gandalf and worst of all instead of a soft little hobbit Frodo looked scary - yes scary... as JRRT said he suddenly had knife that would really kill the Nazgul and the Witch King knew where it had to come from the Barrow downs. So a hobbit who pals around with Rangers and Noldor (from the Nazgul perspective Gildor starts to look not so accidental), Vanishes from Buckland, knows Quendi, is an Elf Friend (if Goldberry can see that I assume it is a real and true status+ that other can recognize as well) and apparently killed a Wright and recovered exactly the kind of thing you need to face more undead...

    Note if Frodo had hit his blade would have melted like the one Mary used

    Yet, Merry stabbed the Witch King on the Pelennor Fields and did significant damage and some might even say, it was he that broke the protection of "prophesy". How is it possible?
    Because first of all like all prophesy it libel to misinterpretation and it was not reallt given to the Witch-King but by Glorfindel talking to a Prince of Gondor, so one could well say it never really covered either women or hobbits.

    But even Eowyn's blow would have been useless w/o the Barrow blade it crux of magic in JRRT's world the specificty and intent of the maker...

    Gurthang is as Dark as Eol
    Sting forged in Gondolin hard by the Spiders of Ungoliant cuts Shelob's web where the blade of Westernesse fails
    The Barrow Daggers are what they were made for:

    Aragorn..."but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor"
    Denethor.... "Surely this is a blade wrought by our own kindred in the North in the deep past?'"

    "So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will. "


    It was made to kill the undead - Saroun and the Noldor with not mortal even apart from their rings. The Nazgul may have become more durable but they were not indestructible and remained trapped mortals (and not heart in the box like S and the One) and facing Necromancy the smiths of Cardolian seem to have found an solution to their problem
    Last edited by conon394; January 15, 2013 at 09:51 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #370
    FC Groningen's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I thought Frodo's blade melted too, hence the confusion. Also, the words of Aragorn wouldn't make sense then.

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    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    How did he lose his blade again? Was it broken when he fell from Glorfindel's horse?
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  12. #372
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    It was broken at the Ford to Rivendell

    'By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair,' said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, 'you shall
    have neither the Ring nor me!'

    Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised
    up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart
    labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand
    . The elf-horse reared and snorted. The
    foremost of the black horses had almost set foot upon the shore.


    Looks like the WK broke it with a Spell - I wonder if had to prep that for the confrontation?

    Note the Sword is clearly Magic since at the End like the Nazgul, Frodo and Glorfindel it has a footprint in the invisible world

    "Immediately, though everything else remained as before, dim and dark, the shapes became
    terribly clear. He was able to see beneath their black wrappings. There were five tall figures: two
    standing on the lip of the dell, three advancing. In their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes;
    under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their
    haggard hands were swords of steel. Their eyes fell on him and pierced him, as they rushed towards
    him. Desperate, he drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a
    firebrand.


    I thought Frodo's blade melted too, hence the confusion. Also, the words of Aragorn wouldn't make sense then.


    Just to clarify here is the passage...

    'Look!' he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden
    by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's
    sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades
    perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.'


    What Aragorn says is just that Frodo missed all the other Blades are used in the book so Frodo did need/get a new one.
    Last edited by conon394; January 15, 2013 at 07:51 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #373
    FC Groningen's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by smoesville View Post
    How did he lose his blade again? Was it broken when he fell from Glorfindel's horse?
    Yeah nevermind, it was the Morgul Blade that went up in smoke.

  14. #374
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Interesting point about different producers and magic and quality of weapons and such...

    As Aragorn notes the orcs don't take the Barrow Knives because they find them not fun items to have. Gollum likes neither Sting nor Elf rope, and Glamdring is positivly cheerful about killing the Great Goblin in the Hobbit

    "now it was bright as blue flame for delight in the killing of the great lord of the cave"


    In contrast while Frodo's mail is clearly a comparable uber craft product orcs are willing to kill to keep it.

    So does that mark a distiction between the the craft of Dwarves vs Elves and Numenor or is it just that since the mail shirt was for export it had no special pro-Dwaven aspect to it when made?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #375
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I think there is a distinct difference between Númenorean/Elven and Dwarven craft. The latter is about quality materials made by master craftsmen while the former is more about the 'Art' of the West. I think that is one of the things that was missing in Gondors fading was that while their technical ability was mostly undiminished in the way of arms and armour, they were unable to imbue the items with other effects like they used to be able to do in Westernesse.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  16. #376

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Do the men of Southern Gondor serve time in the forces stationed at Minas Tirith/Osgiliath? The reason I ask is because if they don't then the average Man of Southern Gondor would likely never have seen an orc. They would be a fairly raw bunch, having only the occassional run in with Corsairs.

    The famed Knights of Dol Amroth would have very little combat experience.

    For clarification I'm talking about the years leading up to the War of the Ring.

    Am I missing something?

  17. #377
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The famed Knights of Dol Amroth would have very little combat experience.
    Their performance would suggest otherwise.

    Do the men of Southern Gondor serve time in the forces stationed at Minas Tirith/Osgiliath? The reason I ask is because if they don't then the average Man of Southern Gondor would likely never have seen an orc. They would be a fairly raw bunch, having only the occassional run in with Corsairs.
    Since Gondor's Northern provinces amount to just MT and Anorien it hard not to think the Forces there are not recruited from all over - The garrison at Cair Andros, Rangers, Guard, etc all look like long term jobs. However there is the briefly noted force lost under Boramir when Sauron needed to get the Nazgul across the river. I would that looks more likely to be part of general call up as was likely the force used to take back the crossing in the first place.

    "Only a remnant of our eastern force came back, destroying the last bridge that still stood amid the ruins of Osgiliath"


    I would think the force Boramir used to take and hold Osgiliath was a large levy not just a permanent garrison - but was it from only the small North I doubt it.

    Also by themselves orcs are not all that scary - As long as the Knights of Amroth and its foot men were professinals under good ledership, well equiped, and well trained I don't see why an orc would be a worry of a corsair...
    Last edited by conon394; January 15, 2013 at 11:41 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #378
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    The Dwarven-made Dragonhelm had carved runes that protected the wearer. So, the difference between dwarven and elven work is not that the Dwarves were unable to create 'magic' stuff. It seems the difference is that elven/edain work is offensive and clearly targeted at Orcs or Nazgûl, while dwarven stuff isn't.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  19. #379
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    There's potent runes? Interesting, never encountered any signs of Dwarven capacity to enchant anything, simply that they made masterful products. Not even Angrist is hinted to have any magical properties, and it could cut iron.
    Can you point the source?


    EDIT: Beside the word operated doors then, those I have to take for magical, I ought to add hehe
    Last edited by Ngugi; January 15, 2013 at 12:02 PM.

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  20. #380

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post

    Also by themselves orcs are not all that scary - As long as the Knights of Amroth and its foot men were professinals under good ledership, well equiped, and well trained I don't see why an orc would be a worry of a corsair...
    I'm not getting drawn into the orcs are really rubbish argument (I personally don't buy it), but orcs tend to come in hosts rather than singular.

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