Tolkien General Discussion II

[SpanishGuy]

The Eagles in the Hobbit were clearly afraid of Woodsmen with bows. And you expect them to fly through Mordor, with thousands of archers shooting them and the Nazgul on their tails with their winged mounts?There are other reasons too, but someone else would do a better job of explaining them.

Well, the eagles actually went to Mordor in the last batlle at Morannon, at least they could have carried the bearer near Mordor instead of leting them having a long and dangerous journey through Moria, Emyn Muil, Death Marshes...

[Thangaror]

The Eagles in the Hobbit were clearly afraid of Woodsmen with bows. And you expect them to fly through Mordor, with thousands of archers shooting them and the Nazgul on their tails with their winged mounts?There are other reasons too, but someone else would do a better job of explaining them.

[smoesville]

They are mostly aloof from the workings of the world (all things in the Hobbit have to be taken with a pinch of salt). Being the heralds of Manwë they interfered at the end of RotN because i think perhaps he (Manwë) saw a chance to nudge the balance in favour of the West without directly interfering.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Well, the eagles actually went to Mordor in the last batlle at Morannon, at least they could have carried the bearer near Mordor instead of leting them having a long and dangerous journey through Moria, Emyn Muil, Death Marshes...

Yes, and having everyone from Valimar to Barad-Dur know that something big was going on.And the Eagles at Morannon weren't exactly carrying anything, were they? You try having a fight in the air with the guy who carries the One Ring being on your back.

[SpanishGuy]

Yes, and having everyone from Valimar to Barad-Dur know that something big was going on.And the Eagles at Morannon weren't exactly carrying anything, were they? You try having a fight in the air with the guy who carries the One Ring being on your back.

I think that if the fly fast and high enough they could put the ring bearer in the Mount Doom with almost any risk. The arrows may never reach them and the only problem could be the winged beasts. However i don`t know how high can an eagle fly, with or without carrying a hobbit or anybody

[muller227]

I think that if the fly fast and high enough they could put the ring bearer in the Mount Doom with almost any risk. The arrows may never reach them and the only problem could be the winged beasts. However i don`t know how high can an eagle fly, with or without carrying a hobbit or anybody

Ever notice the Eagles during the 3rd age only really show up when Gandalf is about and truly has has gotten himself into a situation he cannot get out of. Suppose it has something with the Heralds of Manwe and Olorin servant of Manwe relationship.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I think that if the fly fast and high enough they could put the ring bearer in the Mount Doom with almost any risk. The arrows may never reach them and the only problem could be the winged beasts. However i don`t know how high can an eagle fly, with or without carrying a hobbit or anybody

They are Eagles, not F16s. They have to eat, rest and all other things living creatures have to do. And do you happen to know the speed of an unladen Eagle? What are the differences between Valinorean and ones born in Middle-Earth?

[muller227]

They are Eagles, not F16s. They have to eat, rest and all other things living creatures have to do. And do you happen to know the speed of an unladen Eagle? What are the differences between Valinorean and ones born in Middle-Earth?

Well clearly Thorondur was a special Mk XVI super eagle prototype, topping out at least mach 3. I could say more but the information is classified.

[conon394]

Ever notice the Eagle only really show up when Gandalf is about and truly has has gotten himself into a situation he cannot get out of. Suppose it has something with the Heralds of Manwe and Olorin servant of Manwe relationship.

Certainly and note also even when they show up in the two battles they mitigate disaster but do not solve the problem...

In the Hobbit they stave off disaster but its not clear if Beorn had not killed Blog if they would have done more than perhaps let the good guys retreat

Same in the LOTR they might have allowed Aragorn to make a mad dash for Cair Andros (that hopefully was under attack and not back south since that would encourage Sauron to sally from Minas Morgul and defeat the whole plan) - but w/o the ring being destroyed its not clear they could have saved the day.

[SpanishGuy]

Ok, i see your point but i think that my eagle plan is more reasonable that sending two hobbits alone to Mordor

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Ok, i see your point but i think that my eagle plan is more reasonable that sending two hobbits alone to Mordor

Is it? Let's say Sauron causes a storm? What happens? Imagine an Eagle fighting a Nazgul steed and the Ringbearer falling off. What happens then? Think of an Eagle trying to take the Ring for himself. What happens then? And those are all that could happen if you managed to talk the Eagles into assisting you.

[SpanishGuy]

Is it? Let's say Sauron causes a storm? What happens? Imagine an Eagle fighting a Nazgul steed and the Ringbearer falling off. What happens then? Think of an Eagle trying to take the Ring for himself. What happens then? And those are all that could happen if you managed to talk the Eagles into assisting you.

I still think that it's safer that be guided by a schizophrenic guy that all what wants its the ring, go near Minas Morgul, pass thorugh Shelob's cave and Cirth Ungol, and walk though Mordor. The story told in RotK is all about coincidences. Neither Frodo or Aragorn know the exact location of each other. Only a few hours (or minutes) of desincronizacion could have end with everybody dead

[Curufin]

You're not being serious are you? Im sorry but the whole why didn't they just use the eagles thing is something I'd expect from a 12 year old or someone who hasn't read the books.

[Ngugi]

I think the thought behind it is that the Great Eagles, agents of Manwë, are not allowed to change the outcome and fate of Middle-earth;

`But Gandalf has revealed to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here possess,' said Elrond. `And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.'
- FotR; The Council of Elrond

I think the Eagles as a rule is not counted as true members of Middle-earth, being sent forth from Aman. While I think the Eagles were Maiar, that is of less importance to the main matter, weither they as agents of the Valar, would be allowed to act or not, even if I make that case here;

For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin of the sea. Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls;
- Silmarillion; Of the Beginning of Days

And Manwë said: 'O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young." But dost them not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'
- Manwë, Silmarillion; Of Aulë and Yavanna

His prayer was answered swiftly. For Manwë to whom all birds are dear, and to whom they bring news upon Taniquetil from Middle-earth, had sent forth the race of Eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of the North, and to keep watch upon Morgoth;
- Silmarillion; Of the Return of the Noldor

A crap policy of the Valar, again, don't mind that, but think that's the case.


In the case with The Hobbit the Eagles did not knowingly took part in the fate of Middle-earth, Tolkien claim that unless it been for the at that time unknown consequences of Bilbo being part to the background leading up to the Batlle of the Five Armies, that happening would been unimportant; and they act on own behalf, the Eagles hate Orcs, not on anyone elses part.
And in the case of aiding the army at the Black Gate that neither have any obvious impact on tha fate of ME - since no one know weither Frodo actually managed to get to Mt. Doom or not.

[smoesville]

I still think that it's safer that be guided by a schizophrenic guy that all what wants its the ring, go near Minas Morgul, pass thorugh Shelob's cave and Cirth Ungol, and walk though Mordor. The story told in RotK is all about coincidences. Neither Frodo or Aragorn know the exact location of each other. Only a few hours (or minutes) of desincronizacion could have end with everybody dead

They didn't plan to do any of those things though. Gandalf never said at the council "Right so when you reach the marshes you need to get Gollum to help you..."

[FC Groningen]

To be honest, I think the Eagles influenced the outcome in Middle Earth more than a bit. In the Hobbit, they turned the tide of battle. Gwaihir rescued Gandalf from Orthanc which was vital to the story. Later, he again rescued Gandalf from being stuck in the Misty Mountains. Afterwards, they again made an appearance in the battle before the Black Gate and saved Frodo and Sam. As Ngugi said, it might have been for their own purposes in the Hobbit, but still, they influenced the outcome. I also can't find a direct reason for them to interfere with the other events I just mentioned.

[SpanishGuy]

Well i'm not serious at all. I'm just wondering about the role of eagles and why they help the good guys in some occasions putting their lives in danger and other times not. Actually the epicness of Lotr resides on the improbability of things ending well (the bad guys always seem to be winning) and finally destroying the ring and ending well. So i do not criticize anything, i'm just curious. Maybe my awfull English has made you to get me wrong

[FC Groningen]

Well i'm not serious at all. I'm just wondering about the role of eagles and why they help the good guys in some occasions putting their lives in danger and other times not. Actually the epicness of Lotr resides on the improbability of things ending well (the bad guys always seem to be winning) and finally destroying the ring and ending well. So i do not criticize anything, i'm just curious. Maybe my awfull English has made you to get me wrong

As Gandalf said, some things were destined to happen and more wills than the Dark Lord's were present. Bilbo was meant to find the ring, in which case, Frodo also was meant to carry the ring. Fate seems a very big factor in Middle Earth, with profecies and foresight.

[conon394]

Ok, i see your point but i think that my eagle plan is more reasonable that sending two hobbits alone to Mordor

But that was not the plan Gandalf and Aragorn had at minimum committed themselves to finish the quest, and surely Marry and Pippen would have gone as well. By staying with the fellowship past Lorien I think it also reasonable to argue Legalos and Gimili were in for the long haul as well. It was only Frodo's decision (magic and fear addled epic dumb-ness) in rejecting the fellowship that left two hobbits alone. And in reality but for Sam Frodi would simply have starved to death in the Emyn Muil or been killed by Gollum. Starving bad since the Ring would be near to S, but killed by Gollum not so bad since he would no doubt have taken it far from Mordor. Not meeting (that is Frodo) Faramir Gandalf would not advocate his Last Debate lunacy and the Rangers might still bring the messages to convince Aragorn to rouse the Dead. Marry and Pippen still end up with Ents and Saruman goes down.

The flying solution is quite common on the net and in nifty flash comics but one should remember what the White Lady says - not by arms alone is Lorien defended and the same is demonstrable for Rivendell. The same is also clear in Mordor, do really thing without distraction Sauron would say notice a flight of Eagles leaving Rivendell and on a vector for Mount Doom. The fellowship was tracked by birds and werewolves when it left Rivendell in a way the scouts and messengers or diplomats were not (in or out). I doubt a gathering of Eagles with an ominous flight path would be unmarked or uncontested.

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As Gandalf said, some things were destined to happen and more wills than the Dark Lord's were present. Bilbo was meant to find the ring, in which case, Frodo also was meant to carry the ring. Fate seems a very big factor in Middle Earth, with prophecies and foresight.

Just the kind of thing you expect somebody to say after their more or less silly plan that should have failed - works at the last minute - tell that to everyone who had to pay the price for Gandalf's piss poor plans, mistakes, and efforts that would fail to win a 3rd grade presentation competition

[MumboJumbo]

Although I do think the matter of the eagles might have been a plot hole (could have been at least mentioned at the council at rivendell) I think that, rather than not being allowed to help destroy the ring, the eagles wouldnt have been able anyway, for a number of reasons.
1. Eagles heading into mordor (or even one) is like saying "Hey, hey! Sauron! Lookee here, look what we're doing!". Doing the unexpected and remaining hidden was supposedly all that the quest had going for it
2. The nazgul fly...no brainer. At home with sauron, im sure even one or two nazgul could handle eagles
3. Sauron - considering he has the power to cloak the whole of mordor in darkness, what hope do a few eagles have when his attention and power is bent on them in his own territory
4. The ring itself - whos to say the eagles wouldnt feel the pull of the ring? Maybe the weight of it would prove too much to fly with. And besides, the ringbearer wouldnt likely want to get rid of the ring at the end of it, and the eagles cant just drop him in the fire
But as Ive been reading the books recently, one question has come to mind (sorry to change topic here): does frodo end up more powerful than, or a match to sauron at the end of the books? I came across this quote

"He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king - not yet." (The Stairs of Cirith Ungol)

and thought 'does that imply that nearer the end Frodo would have been able to command or destroy the WK?'
And the quote, at the end of RotK,

"And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dur was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. (Mount Doom)"

Maybe the journey he made across the whole world made him more a lot stronger in will, and the power he wielded over gollum (i remember he said that wearing the ring he could tell gollum to jump off a cliff, and he would) meant that he had experience in dominating others' minds.