Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #3501
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I always wondered that as well.
    After some scrutiny of Tolkien's original I could now make two different cases, called X and Y:

    They will discuss four different claims;
    A) Elves of Beleriand did fight together with the Host of the West in the War of Wrath
    B) however few of those who fought remained in Middle-earth afterwards [instead of going to Valinor]
    C) and of those who stayed none made stories about it that could be a source for those who lived in later days
    D) What is actually referred to concern what happend up to the point of the War but NOT the War itself.

    Let us go back to the source:

    $15. Of the march of the host of Fionwe to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Lightelves of Valinor. But at the last Fionwe came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms, for the sons of the Gods were young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
    - HoME 5; The Conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion
    Both case X and case Y hold this true: A is motivated by the section in bright red: Eonwë did actually muster Elves of Beleriand.


    Case X argues the following:
    B and C is covered by the green section. Here the important word is the initial "and". If that implies "all those who fought in the war" instead of "all Elves in Beleriand", the rest of the sentance get a brand new meaning.
    It will then just mean that none who fought in the battle created any tales about it or sources for those in later days to work from. We know that many of Elves went to Valinor, so they could not tell about it. While of the rest who stayed no one made any songs or records about it.


    Case Y argues the following:
    D refers first to the blue parts of the text. Reading it carefully, and considering the chronological order of the blue parts and the red text, it actually says nothing about no Beleriand Elves in the war, but no Beleriand Elves in the march of the Host of the West from Valinor to the Nort [of Middle-earth].
    Ergo, the peoples in Middle-earth tell almost nothing about the Valinor host, before it appeared in the North, because they didn't knew knew about it. Why didn't they know? Because none of the Beleriand Elves was in the host in that time, and only those Elves have left records for us (the Vanyar and Noldor of Valinor did not left us sources).
    What the Elves of Middle-earth learned about it, the Vanyar and Noldor of the Host of the West later told them (the war raged for 48 years so there was time), but it never became part of any tales; possibly because they knew it only in summarized form or perhaps because it was not first hand accounts.
    The Silmarillion text do not give any other impression when this interpetation is in mind, as all points at what occured up till the point of arrival in Middle-earth:
    Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman. But at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eönwë filled the sky; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
    Do not mean that we have better sources for the War, that's sadly lacking none the less, hehe.

    Might forgotten some other part of the textures that contradicts this, but ATM I assign myself to case Y.
    Last edited by Ngugi; February 26, 2018 at 07:14 PM.

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  2. #3502

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    "Oh you guys are marching to Angband huh? Well I would march with you but uh... I have to tie my boot strap, I'll catch up later."

    Thanks for the explanation, seems I was stuck on my own meaning of the word march, I should have read into it more literally. March just means 'march' not 'joined the host/war' now that I read it after what you wrote.
    Last edited by alreadyded; February 27, 2018 at 03:10 PM.

  3. #3503
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Haha

    Thanks for raising the question, did not noticed myself it until you asked ^^

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  4. #3504

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Are there any indications of what was the height of Morgoth in his humanoid shape?

  5. #3505
    ♔atthias♔'s Avatar dutch speaking
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by bushmonster951 View Post
    Are there any indications of what was the height of Morgoth in his humanoid shape?
    not in the non HOME sources I have access too

    so unless ngugi or someone else can dig up something from the HOME I am afraid not
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  6. #3506

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by bushmonster951 View Post
    Are there any indications of what was the height of Morgoth in his humanoid shape?
    IIRC he was able to change his size at will.

  7. #3507
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Well, I don't know about changing sizes and what exactly would account for "humanoid", but in one instance he must have been "very big" indeed.
    § 156. Then Morgoth came. For he could not refuse such a challenge before the face of his captains. But Fingolfin withstood him, though he towered above the Elven-king like a storm above a lonely tree, and his vast black shield unblazoned overshadowed the star of Fingolfin like a thundercloud. Morgoth fought with a great hammer, Grond, that he wielded as a mace, and Fingolfin fought with Ringil. Swift was Fingolfin, and avoiding the strokes of Grond, so that Morgoth smote only the ground (and at each blow a great pit was made), he wounded Morgoth seven times with his sword; and the cries of Morgoth echoed in the north-lands. But wearied at last Fingolfin fell, beaten to the earth by the hammer of Angband, and Morgoth set his foot upon his neck and crushed him.
    The War of the Jewels, HoME Vol 11, Part 1, The Grey Annals

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  8. #3508
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    EDITED: He musn't been so large that it was pointless for Fingolfin to fight him, even if he towered over the king.
    . Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable on-blazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud.
    - Silmarillion
    And while they seems to taken huge forms before the First Age, the Valar in humanoid forms seems to not been so large it is worth mention.
    We get an indication from HoME 10:
    He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism.
    OK, he's of "ogre-size", now what do that mean?
    If we assume that it's not just figuratively meaning "dreadfully large", and if we assume that if Ogres existed in Middle-earth they would be on par with trolls and avarage Ents [Ent do means Giant for the record] we find;
    They found they were looking at a most extraordinary face. It belonged to a large Man-like, almost Troll-like, figure, at least fourteen foot high, very sturdy, with a tall head, and hardly any neck.
    - about Treebeard, TTT; Treebeard

    [Ents] came forward out of the trees three strange shapes. As tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more in height....
    - TTT; The Road to Isengard
    Fits with the tree-description Veteraan referred to as well.
    So, a decent guess is that Morgoth at the end of the First Age would been between 12 - 14 feet (3,7 - 4,2 meters), or somewhat taller, but not to much.
    I would personally imagine 20 feet (6 meters) as an upper limit. That's slightly taller than the redord holding giraffe, or as this statue for scale;
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Ngugi; March 10, 2018 at 11:01 AM.

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  9. #3509

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Thanks guys, I was really interested to find out how he would be compared to Sauron in stature.

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  11. #3511
    Incredible Bulk's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    What does “Bûrh” mean? I wondering if I where to rename a settlement Bûrh Tirith does it mean anything or make sense?

  12. #3512
    Gallus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Incredible Bulk View Post
    What does “Bûrh” mean? I wondering if I where to rename a settlement Bûrh Tirith does it mean anything or make sense?
    Tirith is a Sindarin word. Burh afaik is not, so it doesn't make much sense.

  13. #3513
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    So is Bûrh a made up word used for the game?

  14. #3514
    Gallus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Incredible Bulk View Post
    So is Bûrh a made up word used for the game?
    Most likely. I think it's supposed to be an eastern version of the word "burg". So "Bûrh Tirith" would mean something like "Hill Tower", only with each word in a different language. If you're playing as Gondor or the Elves I'd stick to pure Sindarin. If you're Dale then anything goes, because Tolkien never wrote down any Dalish words afaik.

  15. #3515
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Thank you very much. I’ll go with Dun Tirith then since Dun just means hill
    Last edited by Incredible Bulk; July 12, 2018 at 09:30 AM.

  16. #3516
    ♔atthias♔'s Avatar dutch speaking
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    a very interesting essay of how anglo saxon way of singing influenced LOTR and is used to shape eomer IMHO
    https://scholar.valpo.edu/cgi/viewco...olkienresearch
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  17. #3517
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @atthias
    Interesting, will have a good read ahead


    Quote Originally Posted by Incredible Bulk View Post
    So is Bûrh a made up word used for the game?
    It's Old English, synonym to burg as Gallus is onto (I presume, though the ^ is unknown to me): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/burh#Old_English
    Last edited by Ngugi; July 23, 2018 at 08:08 AM.

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  18. #3518
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    @atthias
    Interesting, will have a good read ahead



    It's Old English, synonym to burg as Gallus is onto (I presume, though the ^ is unknown to me): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/burh#Old_English
    you will it gave me chills realising again how deep tolkien goes
    Last edited by ♔atthias♔; July 25, 2018 at 02:49 AM.
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  19. #3519

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Can the Balrogs speak?

  20. #3520
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Perhaps, to be perfectly correct.
    They are Ainur spirits (of the Maiar 'class'), so IMO we can safetly assume they could if they wanted to, just as other Ainur we meet do when they desire (like the Valar, Sauron, the Istari etc; and when they do not merely communicate telepathically). This even if there are not examples of Balrogs bothering to speak, in any but perhaps the oldest texts [a.k.a written in the early 20th century, long before much had been settled in the legendarium of JRR as we know it today].
    Here's a fair short essay on the topic that list sources of concern: http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB1.html
    Last edited by Ngugi; July 31, 2018 at 03:49 PM.

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