Tolkien General Discussion II

[alreadyded]

I agree that there is a lot to work with, I was discussing just how much you can work with it not whether it could be worked with. The Dunlendings would be a good plot in my opinion, but would viewers agree? They were not a fan of that sort of story in Avatar from what I remember, and countless movies/shows before that. The whole 'sympathy for natives being raped' plot doesn't entertain large audiences so well I think, but I personally do find it interesting. Everything else you mentioned is just more of the same of the natives thing really, no need to show the same thing happening over and over again and it isn't entertaining to large audiences.

As for the scouring of the Shire, that is at the very end, I did not even think about the ending of the show yet. Even that just boils down to the Hobbits being on their own side and thinking they can weather the storm, and having to fight against evil anyway, same as the (insert name here). I personally had no problem with the movies removing that, it is just too slow an ending for a movie/show even if it does have some good points to it. You can get those same points across in other ways during not at the end of the story, and that is what the movies did.

[alreadyded]

I just remembered a quote that pretty much sums up my point;

"So began a battle that none had expected;
and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it
was very terrible. Upon one side were the
Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the
other were Elves and Men and Dwarves. This is
how it fell out. Ever since the fall of the Great
Goblin of the Misty Mountains the hatred of their
race for the dwarves had been rekindled to fury.
Messengers had passed to and fro between all
their cities, colonies and strongholds; for they
resolved now to win the dominion of the North.
Tidings they had gathered in secret ways; and
in all the mountains there was a forging and an
arming. Then they marched and gathered by hill
and valley, going ever by tunnel or under dark,
until around and beneath the great mountain
Gundabad of the North, where was their capital,
a vast host was assembled ready to sweep
down in time of storm unawares upon the
South. Then they learned of the death of
Smaug, and joy was in their hearts; and they
hastened night after night through the
mountains, and came thus at last on a sudden
from the North hard on the heels of Dain. Not
even the ravens knew of their coming until they
came out in the broken lands which divided the
Lonely Mountain from the hills behind. How
much Gandalf knew cannot be said, but it is
plain that he had not expected this sudden
assault.


This is the plan that he made in council with
the Elven-king and with Bard; and with Dain, for
the dwarf-lord now joined them: the Goblins
were the foes of all, and at their coming all other
quarrels were forgotten."

Lots of conflict with lots of sides, with their own motives, but then what? Everything goes away once the Goblins come and it gets lumped into good vs evil real effin quick. It all fizzled out to nothing which is why Tolkien didn't spend much time exploring those plots, just enough to keep the main plot going.

Even the Eagles and Beorn join in and they don't like anyone really, but they hate Goblins more. And of course the Goblins are always going to be against all of them because of that alone.


Whereas Game of Thrones only the people on the wall and on the wrong side of it (both of which no one even cares about or listens to) even believe in the evil that is coming, the main plot is conquering and vying for power with each other not fighting an enemy of all peoples. That is one of the plots, getting people to see the evil and work together. Once "Winter" finally does come all that crap will go away and it will be good vs evil just like LOTR (this is why winter is taking so long to come, they want to wrap the plots up before they stop mattering). In LOTR even the ignorant sheltered Hobbits know who Sauron is (and other 'evil' like Orcs/Goblins and trolls) and that he is the enemy of all peoples, it is the main plot from the get go. So ya there is good, gray, and evil, but the gray isn't really gray in the LOTR. Even Saruman, the main gray guy, is ultimately just serving evil in the end. And the story makes it clear that anyone that tries to replace Sauron would just become him in the end. And the Ents/Hourns serve good vs evil even though they aren't on anyone's side. And so much more of that. I like the books (mainly because of the writing style) but the story is simple when you think about it.


The Second Age does offer hope though, there are three or more sides there a bit more. But even there the Kings-men end up serving evil, and the Faithful are selfish in their motives (doing not so good things to natives and whatnot) but they still end up serving good. It just doesn't happen from the get go like in LOTR, it happens later on like in GOT.

Plots that delve into why/how Rhun and Harad joined with Sauron would be interesting, but it would be 100% fan fiction since the lore does not go into detail about these peoples (because the story is told from the perspective of the West). Stuff from the First Age about Bor and Ulfang and their dealings with Morgoth could be used though. The Silmarillion isn't really lore accurate, Tolkien may have intended to change things and he may not have even written that stuff for all I know.

[Calypze]

From what I understand, while the orcs were all evil and corrupt by nature, the evil men were not like the orcs. They were allies of Sauron, rather than enslaved by him. So I wonder, would the Easterlings and Haradrim have normal human lives (though living in very warlike cultures), even though they worshipped Sauron? Would they fall in love, raise families, feel empathy for their family and wider clan? Would they have culture, art and music? Or were they more "orcish" by nature due to their association with Sauron?

[athanaric]

From what I understand, while the orcs were all evil and corrupt by nature, the evil men were not like the orcs. They were allies of Sauron, rather than enslaved by him.

Not necessarily. IIRC there was no equal partnership, rather they were in awe of Sauron and his power enough to throw in their lot with him rather than with some other human factions that were their historical rivals, anyway.

So I wonder, would the Easterlings and Haradrim have normal human lives (though living in very warlike cultures), even though they worshipped Sauron? Would they fall in love, raise families, feel empathy for their family and wider clan? Would they have culture, art and music?

I'd say yes.

Or were they more "orcish" by nature due to their association with Sauron?

IMO the lore is unclear on how much their culture was corrupted by Melkorism.

[♔atthias♔]

From what I understand, while the orcs were all evil and corrupt by nature, the evil men were not like the orcs. They were allies of Sauron, rather than enslaved by him. So I wonder, would the Easterlings and Haradrim have normal human lives (though living in very warlike cultures), even though they worshipped Sauron? Would they fall in love, raise families, feel empathy for their family and wider clan? Would they have culture, art and music? Or were they more "orcish" by nature due to their association with Sauron?

there is a quote that goes like this

And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction.

make of that what you will

I hope this help

[Ngugi]

Not the first time you ask this Calypze, and you have been answered twice what the sources of lore, in quotes, provides us.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14433624
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13874383

[♔atthias♔]

I have a question do you think this guy is right about the stuff I made black

Uluithiad

'Look!' said Gandalf. 'How fair are the bright eyes in the grass! Evermind they are called, Simbelmyne in this land of Men, for they blossom in all the seasons of the year, and grow where dead men rest. Behold! we are come to the great barrows, where the sires of Theoden sleep.'
'Seven mounds upon the left, and nine upon the right,' said Aragorn. 'Many long lives of men it is since the golden hall was built.'
'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then,' said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to us.'
'But to the Riders of the Mark it seems so long ago,' said Aragorn, 'that the raising of this house is but a memory of song, and the years before are lost in the mist of time. Now they call this land their home, and they speech is sundered from their northern kin.'

It's a rather deliberate misreading to claim that this says anything about Legolas' personal age. The whole passage is about the generational span, the passage of one set of living memories to the next. What this passage tells us is that Elves in general, and Legolas' people in specific, do not have history pass into the murky waters of the bygone like Men do. It's not that Legolas himself has necessarily seen these autumns; it's that his people have, in living memory. Note 'us'.

[Macilrille]

Yes he is right, why do you ask?

[♔atthias♔]

Yes he is right, why do you ask?

beause IMHO he reads to much into it I mean when I read it first I took it to man a rough indicator of legolas age
but that could be due translating difficulties since I read it in dutch

[Macilrille]

There is nothing there, I would accept as historical evidence so to speak. I would say that taking it as evidence of age is reading too much into it.

[♔atthias♔]

There is nothing there, I would accept as historical evidence so to speak. I would say that taking it as evidence of age is reading too much into it.

We agree to disagree

Thanks for the help either way

[Gallus]

beause IMHO he reads to much into it I mean when I read it first I took it to man a rough indicator of legolas age
but that could be due translating difficulties since I read it in dutch

It's an indicator of the general lifespan of the Elves, not necessarily an indicator of Legolas' own age. At least that's how I understand it.

[NejkoPejko]

Who do you think were better ''warriors'', the Vanyar or Noldor? Since we have only 1 war with Vanyar fighting this is mostly speculation. Personally i think the Vanyar were better.

Also how powerfull do you think Ingwe was, the high king of all the elves? Being the first to see the 2 trees, and basking in the light of Manwe his whole life, i would imagine he was Maia level of power.

[Ngugi]

It may be so yes, but would myself put my money on the Noldor: the Noldor had the upper hand against Morgoth without the aid of the Valar for centuries, while the Vanyar never had any chance to get any experience in warfare. Possibly a part of the reasons to why the War of Wrath went on for 48 years, before Morgoth was defeated.
However, the Vanyar would been slightly more powerful than the Noldor when they arrived in ME (not to be read as more skilled or efficient, merely more potent), since they came fresh from Aman. To what degree is unknown though. Aman seems to been like a "power up" for the Eldar (that goes beyond mere lore and technology):

In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race. Only to the realm of Doriath, whose queen Melian was of the kindred of Valar, did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi of the Blessed Realm. (...)

Great power Melian lent to Thingol, who was himself great among the Eldar; for he alone of all the Sindar had seen with his own eyes the Trees in the day of their flowering, and king though he was of Amanyar, he was not accounted among the Moriquendi, but with the Elves of the Light [Calaquendi], mighty upon Middle-earth. (...)

The Noldor, outnumbered and taken at unawares [by Morgoth's host], were yet swiftly victorious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible. (...)

Nonetheless the Edain of old learned swiftly of the Eldar all such art and knowledge as they could receive, and their sons increased in wisdom and skill, until they far surpassed all others of Mankind, who dwelt still east of the mountains and had not seen the Eldar, nor looked upon the faces that had beheld the Light of Valinor.
- Silmarillion

that was slowly dimmed in ME, at an unknown rate. Galadriel did fine still ca 7000 years after her return to ME, for example.
Likewise ME slowly weakened the bodies, as for example discussed by Finrod Felagund in a conversation with a human:

"For know, it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years."
- HoME 10

But then again, very slowly, considering Cirdan, Celeborn and Galadriel did fine Third Age out, and beyond.


Ingwë ought to be worthy of respect; presuming he was least on level with his friend Fingwë he would had balls to stand up to Morgoth if needed, hehe, though nothing says he would suffered a better fate in such a meeting to be correct.
The only known case where an Eldar is referred to as close to Maiar in might, AFAIK, was Glorfindel and that for a very specific reason:

He then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.
- HoME 12

Ingwë never did any such deed as Glorfindel, when he gave his life defending refugees against a Balrog, so beyond hope there's no foundation to presume the king was on par with Glorfindel's spiritual power. But then again, Ingwë was closest to Manwë and Varda, who were not devoted to battle but favoured other manners of power. Sauron was not the most dangerous fallen Maiar because he was the greatest fighter after all.
Ingwë's be or not to be martial abilities anyhow remains unknown, as he never came back, not even to fight in the War of Wrath:

He entered into Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers, and all Elves revere his name; but he came never back, nor looked again upon Middle-earth.
- Silmarillion

and he may not fight before the end of Time, at Dagor Dagorath.

[NejkoPejko]

The power of the light of 2 trees, and silmarils is indeed very hard to understand. The easiest way i could imagine the ''powerup'' is it kinda increased your ''stats'' the longer you stood in their presence. It also bugs me, how could Earendil defeat Ancalagon, Tolkien states that he used the silmaril to defeat him. I think it is also stated somewhere he killed Ungoliant, which is really impresive how powerfull either he is, or the silmaril.
The host of valar was led by Eonwe, the herald, (Tolkien never stated that any valar actualy joined the fight), the host was mostly comprised of Vanyar elves. So the vanyar achieved in 40+ years what Noldor could not in 1000s. They fought Morgohts armies when they were the most powerfull, with basicaly ''superweapons'' in winged dragons and they won.

''Glorious battle'' and ''battle under the stars''were won i think becouse Morgoth didnt send his full force agaisnt the Noldor, he was only testing their power.

''Fading of the elves'' was only happening in Beleriand and middle earth, becouse the land was tainted by Morgoth.

Power of Ingwe is indeed a mystery, but i would supose that you dont get title ''High king of all the elves'' becouse of your good looks, or do you? He was the exposed the longest to the light of the two trees, and dwelled always close to Manwe, which i would presume gave you some similar effect.

Is there any other detail on Ingwe, perhaps in some of Tolkiens letters? Also is his son Ingwion, cannon or not?

[Ngugi]

Should note that the published Silmarillion blurred what the Host of the Valar consisted of.
That the Valar themselves did not accompany the host (just as Morgoth did not accompany his into battle) do not mean it was a primarily Vanyar host. Ainur were the host, with Eldar as support.
If we turn to the sources Chrisopher used when editing the published Silmarillion, we first notably encounters the older idea that the Valar had children. The sons of the Gods/Valar, who are now called the Maiar when the concept of Valar reproducing was dropped by JRR. These children (ergo, the Maiar) formed a host, "young and fair and terrible", that also the Vanyar joined, as well as Noldor, and Men:

$6. Then the sons of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Fionwe son of Manwe. Beneath his white banner marched also the Lindar, the Light-elves, the people of Ingwe; and among them were also those of the Noldor of old who had never departed from Valinor, and Ingwiel son of Ingwe was their chief.
(...)
$15. Of the march of the host of Fionwe to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Lightelves of Valinor.
But at the last Fionwe came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms, for the sons of the Gods were young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
- HoME 5; The Conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Fionwe was changed to Eonwe throughout, and son of Manwe to 'herald of Manwe' in $5 (but in $6 'Fionwe son of Manwe' > 'Eonwe to whom Manwe gave his sword'); 'the sons of the Valar' became 'the host of the Valar' in $6, but 'the Children of the Valar' in $18, 'the sons of the Gods' in $20, and 'the sons of the Valar' in $$29, 32, were not corrected (see also under $15 below).
Other changes were:

$6. 'Ingwiel son of Ingwe was their chief': observing the apparent error, in that Ingwiel appears to be named the leader of the Noldor (see V.334, $6), my father changed this to 'Finarphin son of Finwe': see IV.196, second footnote. (...)
- HoME 11; The Last Chapters of Quenta Silmarillion

Now we compair this to Chrisopher's edited Silmarillion and we see that the Maiar precense may have become blurred but is still there, derived from his father's text;

But the host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners marched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwë, and those also of the Noldor who never departed from Valinor, whose leader was Finarfin the son of Finwë.
...
Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman. But at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eönwë filled the sky; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
- Silmarillion; chapter 24

This do not diminish their deeds in any way, though. I always advocated the Vanyar should have the greatest honour for willingly go to a earth-shaking war to save the world from a terror that did not directly threatened them. And that they did so with superior firepower in the form of Maiar by their side is plain wisdom, haha.
Had the Noldor marched with a host of Maiar against Morgoth, we can argue the result would been different from what their history turned out to be. That they did not march with a host of Maiar do not deminish their accomplishments on their own, however.


If one values 'power' merely in terms of 'martial strength', then I think its with the benefit of hindsight, concerning what the Eldar came to have need of, but that can obscure an analysis.
The Vanyar took Ingwë as their king when they expected to go with him and Oromë to live in the paradise of Valinor under the protection of the Valar forever on. Battle, internal or external, was not on the agenda. The Eldar were not forced to honour him high king by his prowess, nor expected him to lead them in war and indeed, he never ever did.
Was he a very powerful Elf? I have no doubt. However, Ingwë's proximity to, promotion of and acts of loyalty to the Valar tell us of deep wisdom and righteousness, proven rethorical ability and kindness, traits that far more credible reasons he was made king, and later honoured as high king, than that he would be better than most other Eldar on punching people on the jaw (which he as noted never did).


Ingwion is up to the beholder, as canon is a subjective matter of debate (some "fundamentalists" accepts nothing but Hobbit and LotR as canon, while some "anarchists" do not accept canon at all, hehe).
Personally I do give presedence to post-LotR writings in all cases, in which the prince is not much mentioned, but I do count him as canon, still after taking what's written about him sifted through later texts about the mythology that may contradict. Whether under this name or Ingwiel (that you can read up on in HoME 5 for example), he's a badass


(Note: I may be wrong in many of my conlusions, and that's OK, some matters are simply left to subjective conslusions, I however makes sure to share why I concluded as I do based on what sources by the professor ^^)

[NejkoPejko]

Well to be honest, what we are discusing here is not much written in the books, so its mostly speculation. The later editions count more i think, and i to be honest it is more logical that he reduced the army of maiar, just as he reduced the number of barlogs.
Glorfindel was basicaly a ''security guard'' in gondolin, and he killed a barlog. After being reincarnated it is said he was Maia level, but when Gandalf describes him he ephasized that he was an elf who saw the light of the two trees, a mighty firstborn.

[NejkoPejko]

Is there a way toget History of middle earth online, or something?
EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...mies_and_hosts
Really interesting read!

[Calypze]

Not the first time you ask this Calypze, and you have been answered twice what the sources of lore, in quotes, provides us.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14433624
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13874383

Oops, sorry!

[alreadyded]

Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman.

None of the Elves in Beleriand joined the Host of the Valar but the Edain did? Were the Elves just so thoroughly defeated or too ashamed to fight alongside their brethren from Valinor? Was their will broken by Morgoth, or not enough of them left because they almost all died/were enslaved by him? How were just as many Edain not broken/dead/enslaved? Seems odd that none of the Elves joined, even odder that it specifically states just that, but the Edain did. It wouldn't be due to defending their own lands since joining the Host of Valinor was the best/only way to do that, also the Edain still joined even if that was the case. Seems like they just didn't have any fight left in them and the Edain did, even if only a few hundred were left you would think at least one of those effin Elves would join.

I was just wondering what other's opinions are on why they didn't join.

I suppose from a storyteller's perspective that is just so he didn't have to go into detail about the war.