Tolkien General Discussion II

[Ngugi]

A tad surprised perhaps, haha, but then again I'm not negative myself. Let it prove itself, if it comes to that.

[♔atthias♔]

well I dont bellieve PJ was responsible for messing with the hobbit movies
dell toro did and PJ got no time to fix it from WB
so most of all I want PJ to be involved as to not to have guys like dell toro messing with this

[Dude with the Food]

I agree with atthias but I get the feeling PJ would be happy to pass the metaphorical baton. Watch it end up as a gritty and realistic imagining though, I don't think we've had enough of that yet.

[lolIsuck]

What I disliked most about the Hobbit films was the overreliance on CGI and the awful desgin for the bad guys. The wolf/warg riders looked pretty good and I could have lived with Azog and his weird prosthetic armweapon but after that they went on the ridiculous tour. The goblins looked awful (I thought LotR's goblins were perfect so a real wtf decision to change them), the Great Goblin was plain ridiculous and those weird troll-like beasts were probably the biggest wtf of the film. The design I disliked most was Bolg though, with random bits of metal in his body and his abs of steel. So I do hope the series goes back to LotR style orcs and goblins and takes it easy on the CGI, which seeing as CGI is expensive and series generally have fewer funds than a film they just might do.

[athanaric]

What I disliked most about the Hobbit films was the overreliance on CGI and the awful desgin for the bad guys. The wolf/warg riders looked pretty good and I could have lived with Azog and his weird prosthetic armweapon but after that they went on the ridiculous tour. The goblins looked awful (I thought LotR's goblins were perfect so a real wtf decision to change them), the Great Goblin was plain ridiculous and those weird troll-like beasts were probably the biggest wtf of the film. The design I disliked most was Bolg though, with random bits of metal in his body and his abs of steel. So I do hope the series goes back to LotR style orcs and goblins and takes it easy on the CGI, which seeing as CGI is expensive and series generally have fewer funds than a film they just might do.

I think they were going for a lighter, more "whimsical" tone in accordance with the books. That's why everything is more over the top in the Hobbit movies (except perhaps Hogo Weaving's Elrond. He actually looked more Elf-like than he did in LotR). Some of the orcs from the LotR movies look a bit scary, even the puny OotMM. Of course, that move misfired.

[Påsan]

Is Silmarillion off the table or not? Id rather have Turin than a fabricated story about Aragorn.

[lolIsuck]

Well, from what I've read they're aiming for something about the period between the Hobbit and Fellowship but that could of course be wrong. I don't know whether they have the rights to Silmarillion, I thought the Tolkien Estate was very protective of it but if what atthias linked is true and Christopher stepped down and he was against it there might be a chance they'd allow it now.
A Turin story is mighty depressing though, the guy goes from misery to more misery, he's only happy for the short period he's sleeping with his sister and we all know how that ends...
There's also quite a bit known about Aragorn's origin so it doesn't have to be all that fabricated. His father died when he was 2, he was raised in Rivendell as customary and took up leadership of the Dunedain after Elrond told him who he was when he was 20. He served in the armies of Rohan and Gondor, raided Umbar and killed it's lord and travelled far south and east. At the request of Gandalf he chased Gollum through Rhovanion and took him to Thranduil when he'd caught him. That's quite a bit of information you can build on.

[Påsan]

Yeah.. I dunno if that is a basis of a good TV show tbh. Fall of Numenor though, focusing on Elendil, Isildur and Anarion, now that you can make TV of. You've got crazy king Ar-Parazon, "nice guy" Sauron, a society in decline full of intrigue and political clashes ect and it would directly lead into the LotR prologue.

Or they could make it a true detective style show focusing on a different story in middle earth with different actors every season.

[Dude with the Food]

Or they could make it a true detective style show focusing on a different story in middle earth with different actors every season.

The decline and fall of Arnor told over several series with each focusing on certain events.

[Flinn]

My money is on a serie based on the Silmarillion or at the least on the last part of it (from the rise of the Men till the end of the first age); if I know a bit the business, it would be too compelling for them to not to try that way, for few reasons

- serials like that have proved to be very successfull over the time (see the GoT) and the last part of the first age offers plenty of opportunities, even for separated plots (Beren & Lutien, Hurin & Turin, Gondolin, etc) that can allow them to make something "new" instead of launching season two, three, etc
- the potential business is immense; if Christopher has actually resigned, there are a lot of possibilities that someone will gather enough money to buy the rights to the Silmarillion
- "loose plots" like those hinted in the Silmarillion offer a lot of opportunities for spin-offs, side plots and whatsnot, which is incredibly appealing for modern producers

as usual I see this business-wise (like I did with PJ's works) and on that regard the potential of the Silmarillion is actually infinite, so I don't see why they should not be trying on that (and try and try and try again and again)

[Ngugi]

Personally I can't see Silmarillion be done as anything but an animated series, but I may be too scpetical; a series is anyhow the only way. Certain chapters would be a movie in themselves, obviously...
At most a mixed bag of a series and films could do. Doubt the quality of such a solution, however.

Would still be entertaining to show folks that the custom to kill off beloved chaarcters in fantasy isn't a GoT news; JRR kills about everyone...

[alreadyded]

Personally I can't see Silmarillion be done as anything but an animated series, but I may be too scpetical; a series is anyhow the only way. Certain chapters would be a movie in themselves, obviously...
At most a mixed bag of a series and films could do. Doubt the quality of such a solution, however.

Would still be entertaining to show folks that the custom to kill off beloved chaarcters in fantasy isn't a GoT news; JRR kills about everyone...

I am guessing whatever they make will use and abuse CGI so it will be mostly animated even if it is live action.

"Go stand in front of the background screen and look cool, we will handle the rest in post-production."

[Ngugi]

Point, haha ^^

[alreadyded]

You guys think it will be rated R or PG-13? You get a much bigger audience with PG-13 so that will be a factor. I think that will say a lot about the direction they go. Also, if they try to go off of the movie lore that will really limit them so I would guess they will retell it or at the very least add to it.

I think the LOTR is too 'epic' and 'high fantasy' to be picked apart into smaller pieces like that and still work the same way. I'm not a fan of the movies, but they did do a damn good job of getting the point across, way better than I ever expected.

If they made a PG-13 version of the Silmarillion I doubt I would like it. And I like the Silmarillion way better than LOTR. I like The Hobbit better than LOTR even. LOTR is too mainstream and pop for me I guess, though it was mainstream and pop in the 1930's.

The LOTR story is too linear and dichotomous (good vs evil) to be told so complex. Even the whole Saruman being on his own side plot fizzles to nothing since he is just serving Sauron (evil) whether he knows it or not (the "child's copy" quote from the books sums it up nicely). And the Orcs/Goblins being self serving plot also fizzles out to nothing since they have to serve Sauron (evil) out of necessity. The Ents/Hourns, and everyone else that is on their own side plot fizzles out to nothing since they still serve good by having to fight against Sauron (evil) out of necessity. The books cover all these side plot points but it does it quickly and without going into much detail. They just are not worth going into detail about more than the books did really that is the problem. It all comes down to good vs evil anyway so the side plots don't even matter enough to go into that much detail about. That is my opinion anyway, and I assume Tolkien agrees with it since he only went into so much detail about it, just enough to add to the main plot which is all that really matters.

With Game of Thrones they don't have that problem, the story focuses on these side plots since they are the story, and more importantly I think no one already knows the ending like the will with LOTR. People knowing the end already probably will not be so entertained by all these side plots that ultimately don't matter enough to be depicted in so much detail.

If I was investing my time and money I would just go with the safe investment of remaking the LOTR to cash in on popularity. If it is PG-13 a good amount of your sales will go to people that were not even alive or have no memory of when the original movies were made. Of course, I don't invest my time or money in shows/movies so my opinion doesn't mean squat.

[Ngugi]

I'm not quite sure what would warrant an R-version to be honest
If to stay aligned to how Tolkien's legenadrium is written it isn't sexual (and arguably nothing really calls for us to see Arathorn and Gilraen sire Aragorn, or Turin and Nienor get it on in a Silmarillion adaptation, hehe) or filled with foul language, and you had to be deliberatly gruesome to reach it from violence.

[Dude with the Food]

(and arguably nothing really calls for us to see Arathorn and Gilraen sire Aragorn, or Turin and Nienor get it on in a Silmarillion adaptation, hehe)

I sat through the Hobbit films, this fan needs service.

[alreadyded]

Maybe it was just in my mind that the Silmarillion was so gruesome than. I was referring to the gore aspect mainly, but also just making it more "Game of Thrones" and less "LOTR movies" (more realistic fantasy than high fantasy) in style too since they will certainly try to grab as many of those GOT viewers as possible. I am still on the 5th season of GOT and I started watching it when it came out since I read the books that were out, the wife just heard of the show like a few months ago and she is all caught up. I really should make her get a damn job.

[athanaric]

The LOTR story is too linear and dichotomous (good vs evil) to be told so complex.

LotR being dichotomous and black-and-white is a tired cliché in and of itself. I assume it originated with people who fell asleep halfway through the book, or only watched the movie adaptations. There's actual philosophical questions to be found in the material, as well as eerily relatable (internal) political issues.

I sat through the Hobbit films, this fan needs service.

More shirtless scenes, please (ladies, too. We don't want to be discriminatory after all). Seriously, I'd much rather watch an R-rated, GRRM-inspired version of LotR than another standard fantasy movie/series with too low a budget and too many high fantasy tropes.

[alreadyded]

LotR being dichotomous and black-and-white is a tired cliché in and of itself. I assume it originated with people who fell asleep halfway through the book, or only watched the movie adaptations. There's actual philosophical questions to be found in the material, as well as eerily relatable (internal) political issues.

Which I mentioned a few big ones in my post, and why I ultimately don't think they amount to being told in more detail. Even Tolkien didn't go into much detail on these side plots. It still came down to good vs evil in the end. Were the Orcs really evil? No, and it could be a great plot to cover but it didn't really matter much in the end so only one or two chapters even briefly hint at their personal motives, which end at serving evil out of necessity because the good guys will kill them. And the reverse is true for the Ents/Hourns. Yes everyone is on their own side, and that makes it more complex, but how much more really? Just not much side plot to stretch into a interesting show is all I am saying, not that there isn't anything there to be used at all. No clue how you got that from my post.

Do you ever read my posts? It never seems like it.

[athanaric]

Which I mentioned a few big ones in my post, and why I ultimately don't think they amount to being told in more detail. Even Tolkien didn't go into much detail on these side plots. It still came down to good vs evil in the end. Were the Orcs really evil? No, and it could be a great plot to cover but it didn't really matter much in the end so only one or two chapters even briefly hint at their personal motives, which end at serving evil out of necessity because the good guys will kill them. And the reverse is true for the Ents/Hourns. Yes everyone is on their own side, and that makes it more complex, but how much more really? Just not much plot to stretch is all I am saying, not that it isn't there.

Do you ever read my posts? It never seems like it.

The occupation and subsequent scouring of the Shire isn't a side plot, it's very important to the main story and the character development of four of the protagonists, including the two main ones. Did you miss the whole refugee theme that came along with it?
What about the conflict between the Rohirrim and the Dunlendings, the latter of which laying claim to land that was allegedly "stolen" from them by the kings of Gondor, and given to the Rohirrim? There's an entire back story of Númenórean kings treating the natives of Enedwaith poorly.
Then there's the Drúedain and their complicated relationship with all other human populations.
Or you could explore the different attitudes to war among various ethnicities of Men, even between Gondor and Rohan. Seriously, there's a lot of material for any half decent script writer.