Tolkien General Discussion II

[♔atthias♔]

interesting theory although it is full of gaps in logic
https://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

[AmrothForGondor]

What are the barrow-wights exactly? Some kind of corrupted maiar or perhaps something more sinister like enslaved spirits by Sauron like some people in Tolkien reddit say?

[AntonisTheGreek]

The Barrow-wights were bones animated by evil spirits,essentially a kind of undead.We don't know for sure whether they were corrupted Maiar or something else.

[Ngugi]

It's down to speculations I'm afraid - and what line of arguments any of us prefere to believe in most is personal preference; JRR do not confirm it for us.
As with many other matters in Middle-earth, their true nature remains unknown.

[Macilrille]

My books are still packed down, but I am pretty certain you know where to find it Ngugi; for I am pretty certain one of the later HoME volumes states that the Barrow Wights are lesser fallen Maiar- not undead as ICE thought.

[Ngugi]

Can have a second look, sure, though has no such recollections nor seen anyone refer to it (beside the texts about the concepts of Elven lingering spirits in themselves, in HoME 10, that is often used in Barrow-wight speculations even if the texts themselves do not refer to Barrow-wights) so do not set up any special hope, hehe

[Ngugi]

Afraid I couldn't find anything. At most the early drafted ideas of the wraiths as alike/akin the Ring-wraiths, but that was as is known rejected, and after that no clues except that they were sent to the barrows.

[AmrothForGondor]

I saw that theory about barrow-wights being elven spirits in the Tolkien subreddit. A very creepy idea, the thought of an elven spirit being reduced to that kind of monster, worse than being transformed into an orc in my opinion

[Ngugi]

Yeah;

But it would seem that in these after-days more and more of the Elves, be they of the Eldalië in origin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons of Mandos, and wander houseless in the world, unwilling to leave it and unable to inhabit it... Not all of these are kindly or unstained by the Shadow. Indeed the refusal of the summons is in itself a sign of taint.


It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy.
Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's [sic; probably a misprint for one’s own] will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.


Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement [sic] of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction.
For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant.
Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.

- HoME 10; Laws and Customs among the Eldar; Of Re-Birth and Other Dooms of Those That Go to Mandos

[♔atthias♔]

a nice thread that show us a different view point of orcs
an eye opener for me so I tough I should share it https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/commen..._the_uruk_hai/

[AmrothForGondor]

Interesting the act of chivalry towards an orc from Eomer, when he dismounted to duel Uruk. always got my atention.

[♔atthias♔]

yeah I agree

[Ngugi]

Thought I share a narrative of the history of Celeborn from First to Fourth Age that I did the other day, to those interested: https://imgur.com/gallery/BueSu

Considered him a man who do not get much love, so wanted to tell [a version of] his story.

[♔atthias♔]

thanks ngugi
I love especially that you are being tracked picture because that is literally what you have been doing LOL
I wanted to share this http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewco...xt=lib_science

[athanaric]

I wanted to share this http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewco...xt=lib_science

Interesting. I wonder though why the author called it "Northern" when "Nordic", "Norse", or "North Germanic" would have been more descriptive as well as more established.

[Macilrille]

Norse would indeed be more suitable from her introduction.

[Ngugi]

I find Northern, in a general Tolkien context, a proper term for the sagas and mythology that inspiration was drawn from. Even if that for what I find that not discussed here, I assume this essay is an extract from, or stems from, a general discourse and thus use a terminoilogy that is meant for a more all encompassing analysis.

Norse and Nordic would exclude Beowulf (despite its topic and sources), as that is an Anglo-Saxon craft.
And while other influences as noted are not discussed here, Norse and Nordic would further exclude potential Celtic and Arthurian influences, while North Germanic would exclude the important Finnish inluences on JRR's legenadrium.


As for the rest the essay has some fine references and paralells but in places suffers from the common fault of drawing easy yet ill-founded conslusions [which is OK if one notes its a theory and not an established fact]. JRR's disinterest in allegory aside, we should always keep in mind that 'Correlation doesn't imply causation'.
For example "The Old Willow's attempt to ingest Pippin parallels a story of a magician who is regenerated by being pulled into a tree and subsequently kicked out in the Magnus saga." is a compelling deduction.
But "Norse cosmography reveals the world as a circular disk held by the roots of Y ggdrasil, the world Ash. Ents derive from this conception." clearly is a child of this author's own imagination.

[athanaric]

I was under the impression that she didn't discuss the Finnish (and other) elements anyway. "Northern" is just a really abstract term that could refer to anything in a northern latitude. "Northern European" might've been a better compromise.

[Ngugi]

Yeah, nothing wrong with anyone's concern with the terms when this essay in itself.
I merely propose the reason to use Northern (and why I think this essay uses Northern) is that, in the wider discussion about the legendarium, Northern best covers many of the key but different mythological inspirations JRR had

[athanaric]

In other news:
http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/lord...on-1202606519/