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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #3401
    atthias's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by AntonisTheGreek View Post
    Maybe he means that the days of Gondor as a kingdom on its own will end,and that from now on Gondor will continue to exist as the capital of the Reunited Kingdom,which contains both Gondor and Arnor,hence the word "greater".
    thanks for the answer +rep
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  2. #3402
    Ngugi's Avatar and the Ferrit
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @lolIsuck
    Quote Originally Posted by lolIsuck View Post
    Completely unrelated to this, it seems as if Tolkien kept forgetting (or ignoring) that Elladan and Elrohir were with Aragorn in the Return of the King, on several occasions he singles out Legolas as the exception of something because he's not affected by something as he is an elf (Path of the Dead for example) where one would assume that the Twins would be mentioned as well, certainly considering their higher ancestry when compared to Legolas. Also, a quote of Aragorn in the Houses of Healing is quite odd if one considers that they're with him:

    Surely Elrond sons would then still hold great power, presumably more than generation 30 something Aragorn, with the added bonus that they're Elves and thus infinitely superior.
    Two matters here.
    The first is that at the end of the chapter that you quote, Aragorn indeed do call for Elladan and Elrohir:
    And Aragorn arose and went out, and he sent for the sons of Elrond, and together they laboured far into the night.
    - RotK; The Houses of Healing
    What may be assumed Aragorn earlier meant is that neither of the three are on Elrond's level, but that's just to be expected


    ~~~

    Secondly, Elrond and his children are technically not Elves, but half-Elves [Peredhil] bestowed with the fate of Elves [the 'immortality']. Indeed, even the Valar were not sure about the question whether the Peredhil were Elves or Men, but settled to let them chose which kindred's fate they prefered:
    [Mandos about Eärendil:] 'Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?'
    But Ulmo said: 'For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Eärendil Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon's daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?'
    And Mandos answered: 'Equally the Noldor, who went wilfully into exile, may not return hither.'
    But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'
    ...
    In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar; but Elros his brother chose to abide with Men.
    - Silmarillion; Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath

    Now Elros and Elrond his brother were descended from the Three Houses of the Edain, but in part also both from the Eldar and the Maiar; for Idril of Gondolin and Lúthien daughter of Melian were their fore-mothers. The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Ilúvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Ilúvatar gave to them the judgement; and they judged that to the sons of Eärendil should be given choice of their own destiny. And Elrond chose to remain with the Firstborn, and to him the life of the Firstborn was granted.
    - Silmarillion; Akallabeth

    The sons of Eärendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven.
    - Appendix A; I

    Elrond was received into the company and life-span of the Eldar, and became esquire and banner-bearer of Ereinion Gil-galad.
    - HoME 12; The Shibboleth of Feanor; The names of Finwe's descendants; 5
    Point being, Elrond like his parents Eärendil and Elwing had the fate of Elves and therefore often were accounted to the Elves, but when strict in definition were not Elves themselves.
    And if you wonder (as one might), no, there exist no mathematical definition when you're a Half-Elf and when you're not, nor is it clear why Elrond's children were allowed to chose but not Elros' children.
    Back to Elrond, when we meet him in The Hobbit he is described:
    The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose fathers came into the strange stories before the beginning of History, the wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men in the North.
    In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.
    He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.
    - The Hobbit; A Short Rest
    Had he been an Elf proper, he would not been called an "elf-friend" and it would been odd to use the compairison "as an elf-lord", but he is one who is both Elf and Man.
    This proved a fitting choice, as in Letter 257 from 1967 Tolkien comments:
    From The Hobbit are also derived the matter of the Dwarves, Durin their prime ancestor, and Moria; and Elrond. The passage in Ch. iii relating him to the Half-elven of the mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology (Elros and Elrond the two sons of Eärendel) I made him half-elven. Only in The Lord was he identified with the son of Eärendel, and so the greatgrandson of Lúthien and Beren, a great power and a Ringholder.
    JRR stuck to this distinction throughout LotR indeed, and did not count Elrond's sons as Elves, as Legolas often is referred to as "the Elf" or as representing the Elves even when Elrond's sons are present, hehe.
    To compair the description in The Hobbit, Elrond when he is described in FotR is granted to both kindred:
    The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men.
    Last edited by Ngugi; June 25, 2017 at 01:16 PM.

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  3. #3403
    atthias's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    @lolIsuck
    Two matters here.
    The first is that at the end of the chapter that you quote, Aragorn indeed do call for Elladan and Elrohir:
    What may be assumed Aragorn earlier meant is that neither of the three are on Elrond's level, but that's just to be expected


    ~~~

    Secondly, Elrond and his children are technically not Elves, but half-Elves [Peredhil] bestowed with the fate of Elves [the 'immortality']. Indeed, even the Valar were not sure about the question whether the Peredhil were Elves or Men, but settled to let them chose which kindred's fate they prefered:
    Point being, Elrond like his parents Eärendil and Elwing had the fate of Elves and therefore often were accounted to the Elves, but when strict in definition were not Elves themselves.
    And if you wonder (as one might), no, there exist no mathematical definition when you're a Half-Elf and when you're not, nor is it clear why Elrond's children were allowed to chose but not Elros' children.
    Back to Elrond, when we meet him in The Hobbit he is described:

    Had he been an Elf proper, he would not been called an "elf-friend" and it would been odd to use the compairison "as an elf-lord", but he is one who is both Elf and Man.
    This proved a fitting choice, as in Letter 257 from 1967 Tolkien comments:

    JRR stuck to this distinction throughout LotR indeed, and did not count Elrond's sons as Elves, as Legolas often is referred to as "the Elf" or as representing the Elves even when Elrond's sons are present, hehe.
    To compair the description in The Hobbit, Elrond when he is described in FotR is granted to both kindred:
    as for the part that I make bold Ngugi here is an interesting speculation
    http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/h/halfelven.html
    look at the last paragraph of note 1
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  4. #3404
    alreadyded's Avatar Work up a #6 on 'em!
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Thanks Ngugi. So Dwarves should probably reproduce more than Elves though eh? But with being mortal, losing regions, migrating, etc. would maybe put them back at the level of Elves whom have more social stability in later periods? It has been a long while since I read of this stuff if I ever did.

    Also wasn't there something about female Dwarves not always marrying for various reasons, and males sometimes carrying more about other things? I don't know where I got this stuff from, may have been in the early Third Age only though. Sounds to me that with all this stuff to consider, and more, than even if Dwarves had twice as many offspring as Elves their populations wouldn't be much larger due to all the instability.
    Last edited by alreadyded; Yesterday at 01:11 PM.

  5. #3405

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    It's in the appendices. The Dwarfs marry for love, and so if a female is marrying an another guy, the Dwarf who love her will never marry.

  6. #3406
    Ngugi's Avatar and the Ferrit
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    As Deathshade says

    Dís was the daughter of Thráin II. She is the only dwarf-woman named in these histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need.
    They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone'.
    It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none; some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other.
    As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage, being engrossed in their crafts.
    - Appendix A; Durin's Folk
    I may provide some arguments about the matter, as I find the topic entertaining - mostly because I've seen so many ambitious, pessimistic and inadequate theories around - but it will be in a few days time first.
    Last edited by Ngugi; Yesterday at 04:08 PM.

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