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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #321

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I have another question ( I know I'm annoying ) .

    Why was it such big deal if Sauron get's the ring , since he was defeated while wearing it anyway ? And if I'm not mistaken , he was defeated several times in his powerful forms and while carrying the ring .
    Last edited by The Despondent Mind; January 14, 2013 at 07:33 AM.

  2. #322
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    His powers would become far more powerful with it. The last times he was defeated his opposition was great; his enemies during the end of the Third Age are a pale shadow compaired to what had faced him before (Númenor's armies and later a coalition of Númenóreans and Elves and their allies; in the latter case to an enormous cost in lives).
    As they can not defeat him as it seems even without the Ring they certainly do not want him to get it, on top of all.

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  3. #323

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    From before I quoted the wrong letter it is too Auden but it is letter 163, not 160

  4. #324

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Just wanted to say a big THANKS to Ngugi for all his quotes and his tireless labour.
    He sure is a high priest amongst us lore affiniciados.
    His rep count shall be a symbol of our gratitude.

  5. #325
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Why was it such big deal if Sauron get's the ring , since he was he was defeated while wearing it anyway ? And if I'm not mistaken , he was defeated several times in his powerful forms and while carrying the ring .
    I concur with Ngugi

    Yes he was defeated before - but aside from the addition of really just Gandalf the 'West' was fragmented and disorganized and running out of Numenorians or Noldor

    With the Ring Sauron was safe from the destruction option or risk of somebody of stature wielding it - that means he could take his time...
    With the Ring the Three could not be used and that would have been a major blow to the West
    With the Ring he could have handed out the reaming Three of the Seven to make more Nazgul (and the one that made the WK)
    With the Ring he might have once again felt safe enough to take the field himself - and the West was rapidly running out of people who could face him in person.

    However on the percentage/odds I still thing tossing the damn thing into the sea was a better option
    Last edited by conon394; January 13, 2013 at 07:13 PM.
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  6. #326
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by ztree View Post
    Just wanted to say a big THANKS to Ngugi for all his quotes and his tireless labour.
    He sure is a high priest amongst us lore affiniciados.
    His rep count shall be a symbol of our gratitude.
    Thanks for such words haha, and

    I would get bored with discussions not founded in the texts anyway, so it's really my own responsibility and curse

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  7. #327
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    ...aside from the addition of really just Gandalf ...
    In the wash up that's true but Saruman was good for something: ir was chiefly by his arts that the Necromancer was driven forth from Dol Guldur (albeit to return shortly) and who knows what else he contributed to. He was the Ring expert and had the item fallen into Sauron's hands he might've had more of a role to play (and more powers to display).

    I suspect he fell in part because there was perhaps less to occupy him: with the Ring missing he had to imaginewhat it was like, how it might work, where could it be found, what could he do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    ... I still thing tossing the damn thing into the sea was a better option ...
    Or send It West with one of the returning eldar. Of course Manwe would refuse it but if it were smuggled over by an unwitting mule, tucked into a bowl of fruit or a nice pouch of Old Toby to hide the smell from the sniffer hounds...
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  8. #328

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Was there a settlement on Cair Andros? I don't remember one being mentioned.

  9. #329
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Afaik it was just a garrison to repel Mordor. It was too heavily contested to be a normal settlement.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  10. #330
    FC Groningen's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    It wasn't mentioned anywhere, except that it was an Island and an important part of the defences of Gondor. The natural surroundings probably were good as I never got the impression a large garrison was present there, but it's not unlikely, the Gondorians at least some sort of fortifications to strengten their position there.

    edit: While I think of it, it does seem very likely to me. You need storage space and fortifications for the night.


    I just finished the triology again and I got 2 impressions I just can't shake off.

    - The women in Gondor are ugly. Both Aragorn and Faramir prefer "import brides" over the local "specimens" and apparantly are sent off at the slightest opportunity.

    - The people of Gondor are alcoholics. They start with wine with their breakfast and beer during lunch and during or before duty.

    It is possible these 2 are connected
    Last edited by FC Groningen; January 14, 2013 at 04:09 AM.

  11. #331
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Aragorn doesn't really count, he was in lurv long before he ever came to Gondor and apparently Faramir likes women who look like men. I wouldn't say the Gondorans (Gondorians? Never sure which is more correct) are alcoholics, like most early medieval populations they drank the beer because water was not always fit to drink.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  12. #332
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Cair Andros;
    is never described as to have a population or settlement of its own. The only reference to anything is this:
    It was Túrin that […] fortified again the isle of Cair Andros to defend Anórien.
    - Appendix A
    Gondor women;
    Who can stand up against an Elven beauty? Unless you're in love possibly and compair to your love interest. But Aragorn is in love with an Elven beauty
    They had been engaged for almost 40 years when the War or the Rings ended

    Faramir's choice, well, he's apperently weak for exotic blonde women?
    Very fair was her face, and her long hair was like a river of gold. Slender and tall she was in her white robe girt with silver; but strong she seemed and stern as steel, a daughter of kings.
    - TTT

    They were clad in warm raiment and heavy cloaks, and over all the Lady Éowyn wore a great blue mantle of the colour of deep summer-night, and it was set with silver stars about hem and throat. Faramir had sent for this robe and had wrapped it about her; and he thought that she looked fair and queenly indeed as she stood there at his side. The mantle was wrought for his mother, Finduilas of Amroth, who died untimely, and was to him but a memory of loveliness in far days and of his first grief; and her robe seemed to him raiment fitting for the beauty and sadness of Éowyn.
    - RotK
    It do not tell us nothing about Gondorian women ^^

    Alcohol:
    That's natural, from antiquity and foreward till late centuries, often the beginning of the 20th century.
    It should be noted that the level of alcohol in the wine and beer and mead was low for long; when levels became higher that caused real problems, however not in the mind to go in on the, for sure interesting, history or alcohol here hehe.

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  13. #333
    FC Groningen's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Yeah I know, was sort of jesting Just couldn't lose the impressions while reading it.

  14. #334
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I reckon the women of Gondor were dark haired and grey eyed if from one of the noble houses though the women of Dol Amroth would have been fair i think (i have a feeling that Imrahil was fair haired though i'm not sure as the only quotes i've found say he's 'fair' but it's ambiguous as to whether it means colouration or in action;
    That is a fair lord and a great captain of men. If Gondor has such men still in these days of fading, great must have been its glory in the days of its rising.
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    On Boromir:
    There was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, proud and stern of glance. His garments were rich, and his cloak was lined with fur and he had a collar of silver in which a single white stone was set; his locks were shorn about his shoulders. On a baldric he wore a great horn tipped with silver that now was laid upon his knees.
    –Council of Elrond
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  15. #335
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    They start with wine with their breakfast and beer during lunch and during or before duty.
    Beer was a rather important source of calories for Europe and critically because its safer than the water you might get...

    http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/14037.html

    Beer and egg recipes were common for breakfast for a long time. In any case Gondor is full of light drinkers you should look up the rum bills the US 'founding fathers' range up at the constitutional convention. A lot Americans like to argue about how they would react to modern government but I have to say they would likely find the fact we had Prohibition the most horrifying thing.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  16. #336
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vitiated Mind View Post
    I have another question ( I know I'm annoying ) .

    Why was it such big deal if Sauron get's the ring , since he was he was defeated while wearing it anyway ? And if I'm not mistaken , he was defeated several times in his powerful forms and while carrying the ring .
    The thing is, even without the Ring Sauron would have won eventually. Him getting the Ring wasn't auto-win for him, it was auto-lose for everyone else.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
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  17. #337
    Thangaror's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    On the Balrog: I can understand that it lay hidden till the mid Third Age (maybe it did not stay down there voluntarily but had been trapped). Its behaviour is so conflicting. So, he kicks out the Dwarves, killing their King and his son. Maybe the Dwarves had previously tried to kill it, so this was an act of self-defence? Because later it doesn't show ANY interest in exterminating Balin's colony. It's the Orcs who do it, and as it seems these were Sauron's orcs and they did this either on their own behalf or they were commanded by Sauron, but I'm not under the impression that the Balrog had turned them into his own private army.

    The Balrog has already been compared with the Dragons, who in contrast became active themselves in the Third Age, driven by their own desires, but you've missed the most interesting case:

    Now the power and malice of Glaurung grew apace, and he waxed fat, and he gathered Orcs to him, and ruled as a dragon-king, and all the realm of Nargothrond that had been was laid under him. And before this year ended, the third of Turambar's dwelling among the woodmen, he began to assail their land, which for a while had had peace.
    - The Children of Húrin; The Coming of Glaurung
    Glaurung himself lusts for power and seizes it. He begins to wage war, maybe on behalf of Morgoth, maybe this was his own initiative. The Balrog does nothing. For 500 years after making the Dwarves run away, it had Moria for itself. I can see that there simply not much was to do (except cleaning up the mess). But then Moria was occupied by Sauron's orcs. And instead of surpressing the Orcs and gaining control, it seems that sth like a symbiosis develops and not a Balrog tyranny. Mind you, it's Azog who claims the title "King of Moria". It's not Bally the Balrog. It's not even on behalf of Bally the Balrog, Azog and his Orcs claim Moria for themselves!

    Quote Originally Posted by muller227 View Post

    The Nazgul I think explain Balrogs. The Nazgul have no will of their own they are bound too the Ring through the original gift of their own rings. Balrogs are bound too Morgoth through acceptance of spiritual power from Morgoth, early on when he had it too give they are altered spirits, their self-will is thereby compromised. All evil serves Morgoth weather by free will (like Sauron) or enslavement (like orcs).
    I disagree. The Witchking seems to act pretty independently. Sure, he does not rise before Sauron's return and the whole Angmar project was probably commanded and controlled from Dol Guldur.
    But challenging Eärnur to duel seems a pretty independent, self-willed and actually proud and egomaniac behavior. It reminds me very much of Sauron's own actions in the First Age, especially when he has the fixed idea to fulfill Húan's fate and kill him himself.

    Then Morgoth recalled the doom of Huan, and he chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin; and he fed him with his own hand upon living flesh, and put his power upon him. Swiftly the wolf grew, until he could creep into no den, but lay huge and hungry before the feet of Morgoth. There the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong. Carcharoth, the Red Maw, he is named in the tales of those days, and Anfauglir, the Jaws of Thirst.
    - Silmarillion; Of Beren and Luthien
    I can concur with the other two quotes, but in the case of Carcharoth I'm not with you, Ngugi. "He became filled with a devouring spirit" to me clearly is a figure of speech and not meant in the way that a spirit actually possessed Carcharoth's body.

    Whether the Dragons really are Maiar I'm not sure about either. Glaurung, with all his "magical" powers, pretty obviously is. But Smaug? No, I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by FC Groningen View Post

    - The women in Gondor are ugly. Both Aragorn and Faramir prefer "import brides" over the local "specimens" and apparantly are sent off at the slightest opportunity.
    LOL
    IIRC Thengel married a gondorian woman (Morwen of Lossarnach? But maybe I'm messing sth up and it was Théoden), and Éomer married Imrahil's daugher.
    So, they can't be that ugly. Or maybe, Rohan's women are even uglier and Éowyn is the graceful exception?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vitiated Mind View Post
    I have another question ( I know I'm annoying ) .

    Why was it such big deal if Sauron get's the ring , since he was he was defeated while wearing it anyway ? And if I'm not mistaken , he was defeated several times in his powerful forms and while carrying the ring .
    Well, I think in total the whole ring-thing was a really bad idea for really everyone. I'm not sure what the hell Sauron was thinking when he started this project. The idea itself wasn't that bad to be honest, but he really underestimated his opponents, thinking that the Elves were so dumb not to notice anything and thinking he could subdue the Dwarves.
    After all, he certainly didn't gain an advantage, and he could not improve his power and to sum it up, the whole "One Ring to rule them all" project was an utter failure. First he got defeated by the Elves and Númenor, than by Ar-Pharazôn and finally he could not resist the Last Alliance, who, lets face it, could not possibly have mustered a host comparable to what Númenor and Lindon could throw into the field 2000 years earlier!
    And in the end the ring became his greatest weakness, or if the West hadn't decided to destroy it, its most powerful weapon.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

  18. #338

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I've always thought about the role of eagles in Middle Earth. They are supposed to be good beings and the have took parte in several wars helping the good guys such us the five armies battle and the batlle in Morannon. If they want to help why the didn't carried frodo directly to Mordor or even to Mount Doom. Yes, i know, that way there is no great story, but i wonder why sometimes they help and sometimes not

  19. #339
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    @ Thangaror
    You may discuss wheiter Draugluin was a whelp of werewolves, as a werewolf version of Luthien or Shelob, but I interpet it as a whelp posessed in the normal manner of how werewolves were created, which Morgoth took.
    And since Tolkien tell us "...werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies." also Carcharoth would have a Maia spirit within; however the tormented part I think is more poetic as well.

    Wouldn't take Smaug's lack of magic action as a sign of him not being a Maia. Balrogs are neither said to ever use magic, not all Maia use it; but more important, against whom do you expect to see him use it?
    Glaurung just use it against Túrin and Níniel, no one else to my memory as it is, Smaug is never put even facing anyone but the invisible Bilbo close up meaning we can simply not tell he do not have the same capacity as his kin Glaurung.

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  20. #340
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by SpanishGuy View Post
    I've always thought about the role of eagles in Middle Earth. They are supposed to be good beings and the have took parte in several wars helping the good guys such us the five armies battle and the batlle in Morannon. If they want to help why the didn't carried frodo directly to Mordor or even to Mount Doom. Yes, i know, that way there is no great story, but i wonder why sometimes they help and sometimes not
    The Eagles in the Hobbit were clearly afraid of Woodsmen with bows. And you expect them to fly through Mordor, with thousands of archers shooting them and the Nazgul on their tails with their winged mounts?There are other reasons too, but someone else would do a better job of explaining them.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
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