Tolkien General Discussion II

[Maiar93]

by Malbeth the Seer, who said to ***HIS*** father:

Doesn't this say that Malbeth was male?

[♔atthias♔]

Doesn't this say that Malbeth was male?

no
this is about the newborn baby father not malbeths own
but can you write down in more detail how you read it then?
I would like to know that

[♔atthias♔]

tolkien's real world inspiration for the name of rohan?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Rohan
notice also this Conan Meriadoc
real world inspiration for Merry's name?

[Ngugi]

Certainly a coincidence, I wager
Had "Rohan" been a name in Mannish tongue, like Westron, it would been possible as Tolkien used real languages to create a phonetic sense of the world, as he often did.
Well described in this lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NKlr0vRX34

However, Sindarin operated on it's own accord, the name is constructed out of it, and JRR would presumably not compromise his Eldar languages to fit a RL name; especiially as he wanted to get away from the massive French influence (as seen in the King Arthur legends) on the Brittish cultural heritage, and instead create something 'English', when he created his own legenadrium.

A similar case where the nature of his language and reality meet, is the case of Númenor and Atlantis: Númenor was inspired by the legend of Atlantis, but the name of it's fall was coincidental because of Quenya:

Elendil 'Elf-friend' was the founder of the Exiled kingdoms in Arnor and Gondor. But I found my real interest was only in the upper end, the Akallabêth or Atalantie* ('Downfall' in Númenórean and Quenya), so I brought all the stuff I had written on the originally unrelated legends of Númenor into relation with the main mythology.

* It is a curious chance that the stem √talat used in Q[uenya] for 'slipping, sliding, falling down', of which atalantie is a normal (in Q) noun-formation, should so much resemble Atlantis.

[athanaric]

tolkien's real world inspiration for the name of rohan?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Rohan
notice also this Conan Meriadoc
real world inspiration for Merry's name?

Can't comment on the House of Rohan, but you'll notice the male Hobbit names in LotR tend to be either Celtic (such as Meriadoc) or Frankish. That's a deliberate method for making them sound archaic to an English-speaking audience, yet perhaps vaguely familiar. The whole thing is treated as a translation from Westron, with the English being a placeholder for the language itself, Old English for the more archaic form that the Rohirrim speak, Celtic (or vestiges thereof, or faux Celtic) for whatever the peoples of Bree and Dunland speak, etc. Their real, actual Westron names are different still.

[♔atthias♔]

thanks both of you for the answers clears up a lot of stuff

[♔atthias♔]

how is it possible that Ered Wethrin and Ephel Duath both translate to mountains of shadow?
is the one Quayana end the other sindarin?
if so which is which?

many thanks in advance

[Veteraan]

Quenya?

[Ngugi]

Both are in Sindarin.
Not all names are litteral obviously, but has a metaphorical/poetic aspect to them; and often words has many different meanings, and meanings have many different words for them.
To compair, you could for example have two grasslands, named "The Vast Prairie" and "The Big Steppe". Beside "The" you get all different words, but of the same meaning; and thus each are translatable into Dutch as "De Grote Vlakte", if that's judged to best match what the original names are meant to convey to those who hear them (and Tolkien knew his names).


Ered Wethrin;

orod S., N. [ˈɔrɔd] pl. ered S., N. [ˈɛrɛd] (eryd S., N., ereid N.) n. Geog. mountain ◇ Ety/379, S/435, Letters/263, TC/178, RC/621 ◈ orodrim N. n. class pl.

gwathren S. [gwˈɑθrɛn] pl. gwethrin S. [gwˈɛθrin] adj. shadowy, dim ← Ered Wethrin S/432, VT/42:9

If one is litteral it's the "Mountains Shadowy/Dim", but to the Sindarin speakers the meaning was "Mountains of Shadow", and so it is translated into English.

Ephel Duath;

ephel S., N. [ˈɛffɛl̡] n. outer fence, encircling fence ◇ S/436, LotR/E ◇ et+pêl

dúath S., N. [dˈuːɑθ] (dúwath N.) n. coll. of dû, 1. darkness, shadow ○ 2. nightshade ◇ Ety/354, S/43

Litteral meaning is "Outer fence of dakness/shadow", but to the Sindarin speakers the meaning was "Mountains of Shadow", and so it is translated into English.



Note: Sindarin source: https://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sind...ict-sd-en.html

[♔atthias♔]

Both are in Sindarin.
Not all names are litteral obviously, but has a metaphorical/poetic aspect to them; and often words has many different meanings, and meanings have many different words for them.
To compair, you could for example have two grasslands, named "The Vast Prairie" and "The Big Steppe". Beside "The" you get all different words, but of the same meaning; and thus each are translatable into Dutch as "De Grote Vlakte", if that's judged to best match what the original names are meant to convey to those who hear them (and Tolkien knew his names).


Ered Wethrin;

If one is litteral it's the "Mountains Shadowy/Dim", but to the Sindarin speakers the meaning was "Mountains of Shadow", and so it is translated into English.

Ephel Duath;

Litteral meaning is "Outer fence of dakness/shadow", but to the Sindarin speakers the meaning was "Mountains of Shadow", and so it is translated into English.



Note: Sindarin source: https://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sind...ict-sd-en.html

thanks for the answer +rep ignore that I must spread it around first
@Vet thanks for the correction I spelled it according to what I supposed was the pronunciation so again +rep

[Hanny]

Moved from the DCI: Last Alliance thread

If you want to continue to discuss this subject do so here and please keep it civil and hopefully respectful.

Tolkien used moon servant as the meaning of isuldur, in the appendix, dur is servant,isul is s moon, it's only on the net you find it as devoted to the moon and where it comes from is anyone's guess as it's unsourced. Quenya dictionary has it as moon servant.

[Infidel144]

It probably comes from the Appendix to The Silmarillion, where it say that -(n)dur "is similar in meaning to -(n)dil", which "implies 'devotion, 'disinterested love'".

[Ngugi]

It derives from Silmarillion's Appendix "Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names", possibly that is a matter of version (as I see Infidel' points out).

-{n)dur in names such as Eärendur (shortened Eärnur) is similar in meaning to -(n)dil.

Don't know what Appendix you refer to; the translation proper is found in the Letters ['297 Drafts for a letter to 'Mr Rang', second last footnote]. Which confirms that while the litteral definition is 'to serve', the meaning corresponds to -ndil when used in names:

* This provides the key to a large number of other Elvish Q. names, such as Elendil 'Elf-friend' (eled+ndil), Valandil, Mardil the Good Steward (devoted to the House, sc. of the Kings) Meneldil 'astronomer' etc. Of similar significance in names is -(n)dur, though properly this means 'to serve', as one serves a legitimate master: ...

[Hanny]

It probably comes from the Appendix to The Silmarillion, where it say that -(n)dur "is similar in meaning to -(n)dil", which "implies 'devotion, 'disinterested love'".

dil is for friend, lover, devotion to an equal, and is common to high lords names, as is dur, which is a servant to a higher authority. Quite why people look at a list of names using dur, all as a servant of, dil as friend lover of an equal, and then make isuldur an exception is a mystery, but perhaps it's root is someone not a fan of isuldur, or it fitted better in merp. Why not just stick with what quenya dictionary tells us the word means,, scionand son are not a problem but this does irritate.
Nugui
Earnur is servant of the sea in quenya. Not devoted to the sea.

[Ngugi]

Quite why people look at a list of names using dur, all as a servant of, dil as friend lover of an equal, and then make isuldur an exception is a mystery

Because JRR Tolkien told us so it has equal significance, and one exception do not overrule this...?

* This provides the key to a large number of other Elvish Q. names, such as Elendil 'Elf-friend' (eled+ndil), Valandil, Mardil the Good Steward (devoted to the House, sc. of the Kings) Meneldil 'astronomer' etc. Of similar significance in names is -(n)dur, though properly this means 'to serve', as one serves a legitimate master: cf. Q. arandil king's friend, royalist, beside arandur 'king's servant, minister'. But these often coincide: e.g. Sam's relation to Frodo can be viewed either as in status -ndur, in spirit -ndil. Compare among the variant names: Eärendur '(professional) mariner'.

Now if that's all you had on your heart, I thank your for your contribution.

[Hanny]

Your use of devotion for a masculine name, isuldur, is the only one that exists in all of the male names in quenya, all the rest conform as I have posted, including your example that contradicts yourself. I'm sure every quenya dictionary is wrong and your right, oh wait, I'm not, because they all caution readers not to confuse early writings of Jarrett with what he latter refined as the finished, which is what you have done.

[Ngugi]

Your use of devotion for a masculine name, isuldur, is the only one that exists in all of the male names in quenya, all the rest conform as I have posted, including your example that contradicts yourself. I'm sure every quenya dictionary is wrong and your right, oh wait, I'm not, because they all caution readers not to confuse early writings of Jarrett with what he latter refined as the finished, which is what you have done.

Hanny, no one here said the litteral definition is anything but 'to serve', including me who quoted it myself.
What I have quoted is the explanation that the -ndur corresponds to the meaning of -ndil when used in names. It also includes an example not conforming to 'all the rest' but where -ndur do not mean 'servant of' but 'professional', enhancing the none-singular meaning of the word when used in names [not saying anything about the definition of the word elsewhere].
The Letter in question is from 1967.



@lolISuck
Haha, serious business that ^^

We're happy you like them!

[Hanny]

Hanny, no one here said the litteral definition is anything but 'to serve', including me who quoted it myself.

except in your piece on him you use the term devoted to the moon, which I have pointed out is not correct.

What I have quoted is the explanation that the -ndur corresponds to the meaning of -ndil when used in names. It also includes an example not conforming to 'all the rest' but where -ndur do not mean 'servant of' but 'professional', enhancing the none-singular meaning of the word when used in names [not saying anything about the definition of the word elsewhere].

jrrt invents quenya, its now taught as alangauge, it has its own dictionary, in all cases it's servant of the moon. Online you can find isuldur in quenya at parf edelhellen and eldamo quenya, both explain what I have posted for you, they earn there living doing this, under licence from the Tolkien estate, none use It as you have done. Both use it as I have explained, for isuldur and earnur. Both caution people from using devoted to the moon as it is from a time the language doesnot conform to the finished language. They also use letter 286 to explain what you did for the relationship between Sam and frodo, but that's not the same thing for male and female names.

[Ngugi]

Yes, because JRR tells us that despite the word -ndur has the litteral meaning of 'to serve' the significance of it when used in names is that of -ndil.
Dictionary's giving the trasnlation from the definition 'to serve' are perfectly litterary correct, but it's not all-embracing.
That you deem my conclusion from the textures faulty and ignorant, in preference of other authorities, I'm sure is a personal distress to you.
But that you find the litterary meaning instead of the semantic significance the only possible right answer is not of interest to me, Hanny. I won't edit the preview, nor are there any translations given anywhere ingame in this none-Tolkien Estate-affiliated submod, so do yourself the favour to not waste more of your productive time

[Infidel144]

except in your piece on him you use the term devoted to the moon, which I have pointed out is not correct. jrrt invents quenya, its now taught as alangauge, it has its own dictionary, in all cases it's servant of the moon. Online you can find isuldur in quenya at parf edelhellen and eldamo quenya, both explain what I have posted for you, they earn there living doing this, under licence from the Tolkien estate, none use It as you have done.

Uh, what? Neither of them are under licence from the Estate (unless you can show direct substantiation).
The closest thing to any linguists being 'under licence' would be Hostetter et al who are responsible for publishing Vinyar Tengwar and Parma Eldalamberon.

These online dictionaries carry no particular authority in and of themselves, and certainly not from the Estate.