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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #3361
    Maiar93's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    by Malbeth the Seer, who said to ***HIS*** father:
    Doesn't this say that Malbeth was male?
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  2. #3362
    atthias's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Maiar93 View Post
    Doesn't this say that Malbeth was male?
    no
    this is about the newborn baby father not malbeths own
    but can you write down in more detail how you read it then?
    I would like to know that
    Last edited by atthias; March 18, 2017 at 06:38 AM.
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  3. #3363
    atthias's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    tolkien's real world inspiration for the name of rohan?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Rohan
    notice also this Conan Meriadoc
    real world inspiration for Merry's name?
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  4. #3364
    Ngugi's Avatar and the Ferrit
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Certainly a coincidence, I wager
    Had "Rohan" been a name in Mannish tongue, like Westron, it would been possible as Tolkien used real languages to create a phonetic sense of the world, as he often did.
    Well described in this lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NKlr0vRX34

    However, Sindarin operated on it's own accord, the name is constructed out of it, and JRR would presumably not compromise his Eldar languages to fit a RL name; especiially as he wanted to get away from the massive French influence (as seen in the King Arthur legends) on the Brittish cultural heritage, and instead create something 'English', when he created his own legenadrium.

    A similar case where the nature of his language and reality meet, is the case of Númenor and Atlantis: Númenor was inspired by the legend of Atlantis, but the name of it's fall was coincidental because of Quenya:
    Quote Originally Posted by Letter 257
    Elendil 'Elf-friend' was the founder of the Exiled kingdoms in Arnor and Gondor. But I found my real interest was only in the upper end, the Akallabêth or Atalantie* ('Downfall' in Númenórean and Quenya), so I brought all the stuff I had written on the originally unrelated legends of Númenor into relation with the main mythology.

    * It is a curious chance that the stem √talat used in Q[uenya] for 'slipping, sliding, falling down', of which atalantie is a normal (in Q) noun-formation, should so much resemble Atlantis.

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  5. #3365

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by atthias View Post
    tolkien's real world inspiration for the name of rohan?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Rohan
    notice also this Conan Meriadoc
    real world inspiration for Merry's name?
    Can't comment on the House of Rohan, but you'll notice the male Hobbit names in LotR tend to be either Celtic (such as Meriadoc) or Frankish. That's a deliberate method for making them sound archaic to an English-speaking audience, yet perhaps vaguely familiar. The whole thing is treated as a translation from Westron, with the English being a placeholder for the language itself, Old English for the more archaic form that the Rohirrim speak, Celtic (or vestiges thereof, or faux Celtic) for whatever the peoples of Bree and Dunland speak, etc. Their real, actual Westron names are different still.

  6. #3366
    atthias's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    thanks both of you for the answers clears up a lot of stuff
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  7. #3367
    atthias's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    how is it possible that Ered Wethrin and Ephel Duath both translate to mountains of shadow?
    is the one Quayana end the other sindarin?
    if so which is which?

    many thanks in advance
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  8. #3368
    Veteraan's Avatar TATW Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quenya?

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  9. #3369
    Ngugi's Avatar and the Ferrit
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Both are in Sindarin.
    Not all names are litteral obviously, but has a metaphorical/poetic aspect to them; and often words has many different meanings, and meanings have many different words for them.
    To compair, you could for example have two grasslands, named "The Vast Prairie" and "The Big Steppe". Beside "The" you get all different words, but of the same meaning; and thus each are translatable into Dutch as "De Grote Vlakte", if that's judged to best match what the original names are meant to convey to those who hear them (and Tolkien knew his names).


    Ered Wethrin;
    orod S., N. [ˈɔrɔd] pl. ered S., N. [ˈɛrɛd] (eryd S., N., ereid N.) n. Geog. mountain ◇ Ety/379, S/435, Letters/263, TC/178, RC/621 ◈ orodrim N. n. class pl.

    gwathren S. [gwˈɑθrɛn] pl. gwethrin S. [gwˈɛθrin] adj. shadowy, dim ← Ered Wethrin S/432, VT/42:9
    If one is litteral it's the "Mountains Shadowy/Dim", but to the Sindarin speakers the meaning was "Mountains of Shadow", and so it is translated into English.

    Ephel Duath;
    ephel S., N. [ˈɛffɛl̡] n. outer fence, encircling fence ◇ S/436, LotR/E ◇ et+pêl

    dúath S., N. [dˈuːɑθ] (dúwath N.) n. coll. of dû, 1. darkness, shadow ○ 2. nightshade ◇ Ety/354, S/43
    Litteral meaning is "Outer fence of dakness/shadow", but to the Sindarin speakers the meaning was "Mountains of Shadow", and so it is translated into English.



    Note: Sindarin source: https://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sind...ict-sd-en.html
    Last edited by Ngugi; May 20, 2017 at 09:40 AM.

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  10. #3370
    atthias's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Both are in Sindarin.
    Not all names are litteral obviously, but has a metaphorical/poetic aspect to them; and often words has many different meanings, and meanings have many different words for them.
    To compair, you could for example have two grasslands, named "The Vast Prairie" and "The Big Steppe". Beside "The" you get all different words, but of the same meaning; and thus each are translatable into Dutch as "De Grote Vlakte", if that's judged to best match what the original names are meant to convey to those who hear them (and Tolkien knew his names).


    Ered Wethrin;

    If one is litteral it's the "Mountains Shadowy/Dim", but to the Sindarin speakers the meaning was "Mountains of Shadow", and so it is translated into English.

    Ephel Duath;

    Litteral meaning is "Outer fence of dakness/shadow", but to the Sindarin speakers the meaning was "Mountains of Shadow", and so it is translated into English.



    Note: Sindarin source: https://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sind...ict-sd-en.html
    thanks for the answer +rep ignore that I must spread it around first
    @Vet thanks for the correction I spelled it according to what I supposed was the pronunciation so again +rep
    Last edited by atthias; May 20, 2017 at 09:58 AM.
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