Tolkien General Discussion II

[Ngugi]

Saruman was not 'natural' either, if to count like that, so Gandalf could just as well joined in to smack Saruman around some, nothing would hindered that according to this thesis, which he still did not.
Both questions have already been answered however, to the best degree the sources offer.

[decourcy]

Yeah, that goes down to interpretation. The Istari were not Maiar in their natural forms; they were sent in very slow aging, but still mortal bodies.
When Saruman failed in his task Manwe, Eru, whomever, took away the part of him that was Maia, Saruman was only mortal at the end. He was silver tongued, and knew some magic, but still mortal. Gandalf came back in his maia form, no longer mortal, after the balrog.

[Ngugi]

In short, Saurman's immortal nature did not change because he was incarnated in a body alike the body of a Man, nor because of his fall from grace. After the incarnation was destroyed, he was rendered impotent, but the spirit, a.k.a the Ainur, he himself, remained in existance:

Whereas Curunír was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.
- UT; The Istari

Longer discussion;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Istari were incarnated in the shape of Men, though not making them equal.

When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.
They came therefore in the shape of Men, though they were never young and aged only slowly, and they had many powers of mind and hand.
- RotK; Appendix B

For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.
- UT; The Istari

The aging part is not aging of mortals, and the reality of their bodies weaknesses (some as even Valar suffered when incarnated) do not make them mortal. Mortality in Tolkien's world is a very specific condition, meaning a spirit/soul leaves the universe, a fate that do not apply to Ainur:

It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.
- Silmarillion; Q.S; Of the Beginning of Days

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs.
- Silmarillion; Ainulindalë

The destruction of the body of an Ainur, or Elf, is not the same concern as that of a mortal Man's body, as while the incarnated bodies of an Ainur could be slain or destroyed, Ainur/Maiar could not be killed proper. The spirit/fëa can not die, only be rendered impotent (a.k.a losing so much power in the process of losing their incarnation they can no longer affect the world).

'If it [The Ring] is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape.'
- Gandalf, RotK; The Last Debate

If they do not sink below a cerain level. Since no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it connot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.
- HoME 10; Myths Transformed

Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).
- HoME 10; Myths Transformed

It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until THE END.
- 'the end' meaning the end of the universe, Letter 200

That Eru would transformed Saruman from an Ainur into a mortal being really need some JRR references and sources if to claim, admittadly it sounds like something that LotR Wiki would spread; on the opposit Saruman shared the fate of Sauron, and their ends as physical manifestations were just the same.

And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.
- RotK; The Field of Cormallen

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
- RotK; The Scouring of the Shire

And no need to repeat the quote from the very top on Saruman/Curunír specificly.

[♔atthias♔]

thanks for the explanation
a question you quoted the even the valar would envy the gift of men is it ever written down that we hear a maia or vala wishes he could die and if it did would it be considered opposing iluvatar?

[Ngugi]

No example I can think of, no, though when the texts take place, the world is still arguably young - and we are still today not near the End as far can be told hehe (present day is in what Tolkien refered to the end of the Sixth, or in the Seventh, Age, according to a footnote in Letter 211) so the weariness of Time had likely not affected the known Ainur yet at the point of the texts.
Also, in Aman the impact of Time is less effectful, meaning those in Aman grow tired of the world less soon (why the Eldar moved there in latter days btw, as they did not cope with the changes of Time on the world while they themselves remained immortal and did not change in same pace).

[♔atthias♔]

thanks for the answers Ngugi

[Hanny]

Moved from Divide and Conquer - Version 1.01

re sauron being the greatest necromancer it does not mean that he has power over the dead himself
tolkien almost certainly uses it in the more general sense of black magician

HoME 10 (Morgoth's Ring)

It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.

[TwelveStep]

HoME 10 (Morgoth's Ring)

It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.

I think you're misunderstanding both that quote and the statement you're responding to. Necromancers are, by actual lore, people who commune with the dead. Also known as black/dark mages/magicians/wizards/sorcerers depending on culture and practice. Not people who raise the dead. And that particular passage is referring to the 'unbodied.' Spirits. Not walking corpses. So, the statement refuting your idea is valid.

[Hanny]

I think you're misunderstanding both that quote and the statement you're responding to.

Incorrect.

Necromancers are, by actual lore, people who commune with the dead. Also known as black/dark mages/magicians/wizards/sorcerers depending on culture and practice.

Correct but incomplete.Sauron in lay of Luthian is one who can control undying spirits without their body, and he and those he taught can put said spirit into bodies, ie WK and barrow downs

Not people who raise the dead.

And yet thats what is in tolkiens work, barrow downs dead were re animated by necromancy, slightly different is Beren who was dead and then alive again in the same body.

And that particular passage is referring to the 'unbodied.' Spirits. Not walking corpses. So, the statement refuting your idea is valid.

Tolkiens bolded statement is self evident, its not refering to the forbidden comminication, by anyone with undying, but is specifcly concerned with control of the undying and who did that practice.Had you read the following paras in Home you will see talking with undying may allow it to take over the body and drive out the original owners fea, leaving the undying in control but liable to control by a necromancer, sauron was *the* necromancer and taught his followers how to so achive control of undying. to be a walkinng corspe requires a death, some but not all had that.

[Ngugi]

The refered to text is as follows, for those curious

...They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.
Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos.
The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it he not wrested from its rightful habitant.
Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.

- HoME 10; Laws and Customs among the Eldar; Of Re-birth and Other Dooms of Those that go to Mandos

To this may be added that posessing dead bodies, in difference to taking over or being locked into a living creature, we have no other example of than the Barrow-wights AFAIK (what evil concerns; post-LotR).
And if it was the word 'zombie' that caused folks to react in the first place, that's proper, as Tolkien's undead are quite opposit to the pop cultural meaning of that term. Here are not bodies that lost their soul/self and/or becomes "brain dead", but houseless yet selfaware and ill-willed spirits who posess bodies of others.
To what degree this applies to human spirits as well, and not just concern Elven spirits as described above in Laws and Customs, with the exception of the peculiar case of the Rings of Power and their wraiths, I've not read into.

[delPHius]

... likely never occurred to anyone that in order to make conjecture on fantasy/fiction, one must accept that Tolkien's work is indeed "lore". that means you accept that he was a visionary and/or prophet. It would be interesting to know if in fact he was channeling much of his literature, or was just so in love with British isle and Scandinavian lore that he approximates prophetic vision

[Macilrille]

Some of you should appreciate this;

https://angrystaffofficer.com/tag/wa...ing-functions/

[Veteraan]

Nice find, Mac. That was both informative and amusing.

Spoiler for some quotes: 

In fact, the Palantir had been hacked by Sauron,

At this crucial force in the battle, the human dimension – much maligned these days – played an important role, as Theoden’s niece Eowyn emerged to challenge the Witch-king to direct combat. She was aided by a guerrilla fighter named Merry, a hobbit.

Utilizing psychological warfare operations, this strike force – lead by Aragorn and other elements of the Rangers of the North, as well as SOF assets Legolas and Gimli

The Main Gate was breached early in the operation by the Witch-king, through engineer breaching combined with a denial of service attack by the Witch-king, whose cyber capabilities enabled him to operate across multiple domains.

[merlin19]

If Noldors would had won the battle there was only Morgoth left in Angband atm,
he was handicapped from fighting Fingolfin and would have to deal with plenty of people who were definately stronger Combined than Fingolfin, eventually Morgoth would be wounded from his another leg as well and have no other choice but to abandon his body and go sulk in his incorporeal form until he finds another chance to respawn (if Elves let him that is-as they might have a way to keep him prisoned in his mutilated body) it would count as K.O, Morgoths power also had vaned from pouring it into evil stuff so he would had not been able to create stronger body he already had. However he can kill plenty of Noldor princes so if he were able to come back from it no one would be willing to fight him again.

[♔atthias♔]

I have a question what do whe know about the pronunciation of orc names?
for example the guys at the encyclopedia of arda say that ugluk is pronunciation as oo'glook is that correct and if so why?

[Ngugi]

"U" in Sindarin I think should be pronounced ""oo", but AFAIK that name is not in Sindarin so would at most consider it a suggested pronounciation rather than a fact.

[♔atthias♔]

"U" in Sindarin I think should be pronounced ""oo", but AFAIK that name is not in Sindarin so would at most consider it a suggested pronounciation rather than a fact.

thanks for the answer
but still is there anything know about the pronunciation of orc names in ​general?
also ngugi and macdrille
you might find this an intressing speculation read
http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/in...Age&TID=139636

[Ngugi]

Just found a delightful paiting by Cor Blok, of Isildur cutting the Ring form the fallen Sauron's hand.
Must say it's my favourite depiction so far, despite, or perhaps because of, it's style

This image of the Fellowship crossing Caradhras is equally charming ^^



http://www.corblok.com/
http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/tolkie...corblokart.htm

[Mhaedros]

Just found a delightful paiting by Cor Blok on Isildur cutting the RIng form the fallen Sauron's hand.
Must say it's my favourite depiction so far, despite, or perhaps because of, it's style

This image of the Fellowship crossing Caradhras is equally charming ^^



http://www.corblok.com/
http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/tolkie...corblokart.htm

Holy mother of Ilu, those things go for thousands :O Maybe I should've paid more attention during the arts lessons

[Ngugi]

Was thinking the same thing