Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #3261
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Thanks mate

    I'm not concerned, as about 55% seen the video from external sites (a.k.a inbedded like here on TWC, or on ModDB, decreasing the chance they'll Like or comment. I consider it all thing that will never catch great attention at once, they videos are "to long" and about the Age least people care about, but I hope in good faith that over time it may fulfill its intent to educate many, many people and that they'll enjoy them and share them, whether they express it to me or not

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  2. #3262

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    J. R. R. Tolkien vs George R. R. Martin. Epic Rap Battles of History:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAAp_luluo0

  3. #3263
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Saw that video a few days ago, had a good laugh; JRR comes out of this one as king I'd say ^^


    Writing now however, as I just got to know from a documentary that the celtic word Bree is what a certain historical Robert got his family name from: Bruce.
    Robert (the) Bree, hero and king of Scotland. Delightful
    Source: https://youtu.be/LRQUIo55Nww?t=770

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  4. #3264
    Araval's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I've seen some people say that there are no camels in Middle-Earth, according to this article Tolkien wanted camels to be drawn to Harad on the map: http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/news/2016/may-03
    The annotated map shows just how closely Baynes followed Tolkien's suggestions in the creation of her iconic poster map of Middle-earth, published in 1970, which many fans will recognise. This working document reveals that the creatures which enliven the final poster map - wolves, horses, cattle, elephants and camels - were all suggested by Tolkien and that Baynes drew the animals in the exact locations he specified. 'Elephants appear in the Great battle outside Minas Tirith (as they did in Italy under Pyrrhus) but they would be in place in the blank squares of Harad - also Camels,' wrote Tolkien.

  5. #3265
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Aye, some do, but that camels are in the world have always been prossible to prove in two ways; first that Middle-earth is Earth and we have camels, and second that Quenya have a word for camel: ulumpë.
    Go team camel!

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  6. #3266
    Dude with the Food's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Somehow, I think ulumpë suits camels.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I am me. You are not me. You are you. If I was you, I wouldn't be me.
    If you were me, I'd be sad.But I wouldn't then be me because you'd be me so you wouldn't be me because I wasn't me because you were me but you couldn't be because I'd be a different me. I'd rather be any kind of bird (apart from a goose) than be you because to be you I'd have to not be me which I couldn't do unless someone else was me but then they would be you aswell so there would still be no me. They would be you because I was you so to restore balance you would have to be me and them meaning all three of us would become one continously the same. That would be very bad.


  7. #3267

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Do Lions live in Harad or Rhûn?

  8. #3268
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Yes, in Rhun there were at least lions, as far as the Hobbits knew. It's mentioned in a cute poem hehe: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Cat_(poem)

    The Sindarin word for lion is raw (pl. roe), earlieri n the form rhaw.
    In Quenya it's either rau (pl. rávi) or, I think it was replaced by, .

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  9. #3269
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Tolkien's work is not a fantasy. It's a premonition. It's a chronicle of things to come, after our present civilization falls, not something that happened long ago, before our time frame of recorded history. The proof is in the pudding, folks, or should I say, the lightning!

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  10. #3270
    Dude with the Food's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I can only assume a powerful item of jewellery has either been created or destroyed.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I am me. You are not me. You are you. If I was you, I wouldn't be me.
    If you were me, I'd be sad.But I wouldn't then be me because you'd be me so you wouldn't be me because I wasn't me because you were me but you couldn't be because I'd be a different me. I'd rather be any kind of bird (apart from a goose) than be you because to be you I'd have to not be me which I couldn't do unless someone else was me but then they would be you aswell so there would still be no me. They would be you because I was you so to restore balance you would have to be me and them meaning all three of us would become one continously the same. That would be very bad.


  11. #3271
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Dagor Dagorath kicking off

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  12. #3272
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    Dagor Dagorath kicking off
    Get your front-row tickets to the end of the world show of the apocalypse now! Ticketmaster to the very end!

    Quick question for those who are more knowledgeable about it: just how common was mithril mined from Khazad-Dum during the First and Second Ages? Obviously it is a near priceless, rare and precious metal during the Third Age, apparently used by very few Elves and Dwarves, plus some of the citadel guards of Minas Tirith in Gondor who wear some very old helmets as heirlooms of their sacred, militant order. Was this type of metal used for armor and weaponry a critical factor in the success of armored Dwarves, Elves, and then Men against the creatures and creations of Morgoth and Sauron in the first two ages? Did the loss of Moria to the Balrog and the halting of production of this rare type of metal contribute at all to the waning effectiveness of the armies of Elves, Dwarves, and Men? Or is this a gigantic overstatement when compared to the breakdown of logistical capabilities following disasters like the great plague of TA 1636 that wiped out huge swaths of the global population and left great cities like Osgiliath diminished if not partially ghost towns?

  13. #3273
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    We do know how much it was worth at the time it was still mined, give or take:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolkien
    `The wealth of Moria was not in gold and jewels, the toys of the Dwarves; nor in iron, their servant. Such things they found here, it is true, especially iron; but they did not need to delve for them: all things that they desired they could obtain in traffic. For here alone in the world was found Moria-silver, or true-silver as some have called it: mithril is the Elvish name. The Dwarves have a name which they do not tell. Its worth was ten times that of gold...'
    - Gandalf, FotR; A Journey in the Dark
    Problem is that we have no knowledge what would been the value of gold hehe, but we kow gold is valuable and we know Khazad-dûm could sustain itself on trading mithril, meaning it was very valuable even then. It's doubtful anyone could afford to ever buy much, at least at a time.
    So to these questions:
    Was this type of metal used for armor and weaponry a critical factor in the success of armored Dwarves, Elves, and then Men against the creatures and creations of Morgoth and Sauron in the first two ages? Did the loss of Moria to the Balrog and the halting of production of this rare type of metal contribute at all to the waning effectiveness of the armies of Elves, Dwarves, and Men?
    the best answer I may give, is a convinced No.

    To make a solid object of it would be remarkably expensive. A full human corslet I think would be a bit like investing in a modern aircraft carrier, for a Dark Age kingdom economy
    Thing is, we have no example of weapons (AFAIK), and beside Bilbo's corslet and the helmets, no armours. I feel confident that never more than certain prominent persons or small elite guards ever were in posession of mithril-gear, whether among Dwarves or Elves or Men, and therefore it's influence in war shall not be overestimated.
    In all other cases it is desired for, and used for, decorations and jewlery.

    Next to it lay a treasure without price, long mourned as lost for ever: the Elendilmir itself, the white star of Elvish crystal upon a fillet of mithril that had descended from Silmarien to Elendil, and had been taken by him as the token of royalty in the North Kingdom.
    - Unfinished Tales; The Diasaster of the Gladden Fields

    On her finger was Nenya, the ring wrought of mithril, that bore a single white stone flickering like a frosty star.
    - Galadriel, RotK; The Grey Havens

    [Gandalf looking at the text and symbols on Moria's door:] `They are wrought of ithildin that mirrors only starlight and moonlight, and sleeps until it is touched by one who speaks words now long forgotten in Middle-earth.'
    (...)
    'The Elves dearly loved [mithril], and among many uses they made of it ithildin, starmoon, which you saw upon the doors.'
    - FotR; A Journey in the Dark

    'Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of mithril did not tarnish or grow dim.'
    - Gandalf, FotR; A Journey in the Dark
    Indeed, it is possible to read Gandalf [last quote] as that while only Dwarves knew how to make a proper metal of it, it was desired and purchased also unrefined because it was easy to work with and beautiful also unrefined (for making ithildin for example?). That could mean parts of the mithril that left Khazad-dûm was not even refined and smithed into objects. "Leaf gold"-mithril? ^^
    Last edited by Ngugi; May 09, 2016 at 06:59 PM.

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  14. #3274
    AntonisTheGreek's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Are dwarves,orcs and half-elves mortal or immortal?

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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by AntonisTheGreek View Post
    Are dwarves,orcs and half-elves mortal or immortal?
    depends half elves who chose to became elves where immortal and save for maiar and valar and elves and eru everybody was mortal
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  16. #3276
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by atthias View Post
    depends half elves who chose to became elves where immortal and save for maiar and valar and elves and eru everybody was mortal
    Are you sure Orcs were mortal?

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  17. #3277

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteraan View Post
    Are you sure Orcs were mortal?
    I know what your getting at with them being tortured elves and such, but I feel like morgoths twisting and torture ensured that they do not live forever, I think they map live longer than humans or maybe dwarves but I doubt they are immortal.

  18. #3278
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    ^This.As atthias said, ATG

    Good examples are Elrond and his brother Elros who were half-elves, the label really significant only in the meaning it was not clear whether they had the fate of Elves (immortality but bound to the world) or Men (who die and may leave it). They were given a choice then, and Elrond chose to be one of the Elves while Elros chose to be counted as a Man, and thus die. Elros' founded the royal line of Númenor and is the forefather of Aragorn.
    Elrond's children were also allowed to chose fate, and as we know Arwen chose the fate of Men, once she fallen in love with Aragorn.


    Dwarves were old at the age of 250 but could on occasion become over 300:
    Their average age (unless they met a violent death) was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but could occasionally far exceed (up to 300).(17) A Dwarf of 300 was about as rare and aged as a Man of 100.
    Dwarves remained young - e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard work or for fighting - until they were 30 or nearly that (Dain II was very young in 2799 (32) and his slaying of Azog was a great feat). After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By forty all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what they regarded as old age, about 240.
    They then began to age and wrinkle and go white quickly (baldness being unknown among them), unless they were going to be long-lived, in which case the process was delayed. ... Otherwise 'old age' lasted not much more than ten years, and from say 40 or a little before to near 240 (two hundred years) the capacity for toil (and for fighting) of most Dwarves was equally great.
    - HoME 12; Of Dwarves and Men


    17. It will be found in the genealogical table that the life-span of all the 'kings of Durin's Folk' from Thrain I to Nain II varied only between 247 and 256 years, and no Dwarf in the table exceeded that, save Borin (261) and Dwalin, who lived to the vast age of 340 (the date of his death appears in all the later texts of the table, although the first to give dates seems - it is hard to make out the figures - to make him 251 years old at his death).
    - HoME 12; Of Dwarves and Men; Notes
    (Remember the fact, that Dain killed Azog, by the way)


    Orcs were mortals but could reach a respectable age too.
    They needed food and drink, and rest, though many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship. They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain.
    - HoME 10; Myth's Transformed
    With 'Men of higher race' we, due to next quote that I will come to, will have to read 'Edain' rather as 'Dúnedain'. Among the Edain the age of ca 90 was very old, but their descendants the Dúnedain, before they fell from grace and/or became exiled to Middle-earth, a generic life span was about 210 years.
    So, comapired to the Dúnedain they appeared short lived. Well, that is vague. Let us look at the other quote:
    "The Goblins are upon you! Bolg of the North is coming. O Dain! whose father you slew in Moria."
    - Gandalf outside Erebor, The Hobbit; The Clouds Burst
    Now, if we forget the films who did not care about Tolkien what so ever, in actuality Azog was killed in the battle of Azanulbizar in the year 2799.
    The Goblins who attacked Elves, Dwarves and Men at Erebor in The Hobbit were led by Bolg, who was Azog's son (reversed revenge-history haha). The Battle of the Five Armies took place in 2941, so that is 142 years after Azog died. Even if Bolg was born within the months after Azog himself had died, he still would had been 142 years old, and even older if he was born before Azog died. And at any rate he was still hearty enough to fight fiercly in battle himself, until Beorn came and crushed him.

    So, taking these texts into account, the suggestion is that Orcs could become about 150 years and perhaps older, but not likely much older than so.
    That said, the odds for any Orc to ever reach a high age must be slim, because they would probably stab their own brother in the back to steal what he owns, any day of the week
    Last edited by Ngugi; May 10, 2016 at 11:44 AM.

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  19. #3279
    AntonisTheGreek's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Fine.How could half-elves choose fate then?
    Also,how many Huorns participated in the Last March of the Ents?

  20. #3280
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by AntonisTheGreek View Post
    Fine.How could half-elves choose fate then?
    Also,how many Huorns participated in the Last March of the Ents?
    1 due the valar and perhaps indirectly through eru
    2 we dont know AFAIK
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